676 replies to this topic

[blakey72]

Thats right. We're all wasting our time. Just get the cheapest av receiver you can and spend all your money on speakers and tt/transport.

Is this right???

[John H. Darko]

Yes.

[Dismord]

Is this a joke?

[rantan]

Thats right. We're all wasting our time. Just get the cheapest av receiver you can and spend all your money on speakers and tt/transport.

Is this right???

Correct.

There is no audible difference between amplifiers, so just buy the cheapest one you can find. Any sensible, rational and sane person would know this.

Also, while good sense is prevailing, use some crappy cables which were thrown out by your neighbour with the rubbish, but if you win Lotto, go to Bunnings and buy some lamp cord to celebrate your $30 million win.......or just buy a Bose Lifestyle system. It won't sound any different either mind you, but it will impress your sensible friends who aren't audio enthusiasts.

The last thing you need to do is to round up those drug crazed hippy audiofools, especially the ones who have snake oil rip off cables and tie them up while you burn their cables in front of their eyes, after which they shall be locked in a non treated room and be forced to renounce their wicked ways after a week of listening to John Denver through some computer speakers.

Thank god someone around here is sensible.

[Whatmore]

Yawn... old news

[Braddles 63]

Im guessing someone has been making outlandish comments somewhere????

Edited by Braddles 63, 02 May 2012 - 06:07 PM.

[caddisgeek]

Im guessing someone has been making outlandish comments somewhere????

I find that very hard to believe

[Jason Sangwin]

all "correctly implemented" DACs sound the sam is a better statement ...

One of the most noticeable differences with a lot of DACs is a change in output level when switching from one to another. I normally perceive the louder DAC to be the nicer sounding one initially, I think a lot of people do as well.

Edited by Jason Sangwin, 02 May 2012 - 06:38 PM.

[LogicprObe]

I blame Billy Joel!

[blakey72]

My ears must be shitted then. I went through 4 different amps on my Subsonics before I liked the sound. And my DacMagic seems to make a difference from the 340c DAC. I'm buying cheap **** from now on..... Selling all my gear and off to DSE.

God lives and his name is Simon Wright. He's proved me and all my mates over the past 20 years of hifi that we are all wrong.

Edited by blakey72, 02 May 2012 - 07:32 PM.

[rantan]

I blame Billy Joel!

Jaysuz LP!
What about Fraser.

It's always his fault

[blakey72]

What are you all spending thousands of dollars on amps and dacs for then? Just to look good?

[A J]

Yay thats great news

[rantan]

God lives and his name is Simon Wright. He's proved me and all my mates over the past 20 years of hifi that we are all wrong.

Simon Wright aka the benevolent dictator.

He is not an audio guru anymore than anyone else, just a rampant skeptic who cannot tolerate an opposing POV about cables.

It really isn't a fair fight when someone posts a view, which the owner of that website strenuously disagrees. I am sure that fair minded people here can imagine the result...........or better still, take 5 minutes to read the post concerned.

Edited by rantan, 03 May 2012 - 12:37 PM.

[CP_]

Is this another whirlpool frustration thing? 'Cause I don't really get it....

[Whatmore]

All people sound the same when whingeing about other people whose opinion they don't like

[rantan]

All people sound the same when whingeing about other people whose opinion they don't like

...............yeah

[Zammo]

All people sound the same when whingeing about other people whose opinion they don't like

Nonsense. I can whinge louder than most, so sound much better.

Edited by Zammo, 02 May 2012 - 07:55 PM.

[blakey72]

It's frustrating because he owns the website so people believe the puss that comes out of his mouth. Sorry, I just have much more respect for you guys and wanted to know your opinion.

[blakey72]

All people sound the same when whingeing about other people whose opinion they don't like

I'm not winging, I'm asking for your opinion.

[Whatmore]

I'm not winging, I'm asking for your opinion.

My opinion is that he is entitled to his opinion.

[rantan]

My opinion is that he is entitled to his opinion.

He is indeed.

What he is not entitled to do is to demean or insult someone who dares to voice a contrary opinion to his own.

[rantan]

It's frustrating because he owns the website so people believe the puss that comes out of his mouth. Sorry, I just have much more respect for you guys and wanted to know your opinion.

Yep. He is a self styled internet Guru who holds himself in high esteem and brooks no dissent on his website.

[surfpurple]

He is indeed.

What he is not entitled to do is to demean or insult someone who dares to voice a contrary opinion to his own.

Yes, we are ALL entitled to our own opinions! (you know what I mean!).

[bhobba]

Don't laugh guys. Seriously there are people that genuinely believe this. Heavens know what equipment they listen to. I connected up my mates old 5ch Rotel to his new speakers and it was just so dull and boring it made you want to cry - some non audiophiles were over and pleaded me to turn it off - yet all DBT's show all amps sound the same - we are just fooling ourselves. I was over on Computer Audiophile a little while ago when someone questioned how a person with my education - yea this is serious - could believe cables sound different - according to him to a person with my education and background it must be totally obvious all cables must sound the same - DBT's prove it:

'Bill, you are clearly highly educated. I struggle to then understand how you can equate a hypothesis ("it is fully explainable but it is hard won proprietary knowledge.." etc.) with simple proof that any hypothesised difference can actually be heard. The only way this can be done is with double blind testing. Period. (<= Given we are on a US site )

I am happy for any supposed cable manufacture processes (and their hypothesis as to why they sound better) to stay proprietary - all the have to do is publish data that demonstrates that blinded a difference, any difference, can be heard. Whether the metal in the cable has been soaked in the tears of a Brazilian mermaid under a full moon is irrelevant if no difference can be heard in blinded studies where the hugely powerful effects of psychoacoustics are excluded.'

Yea the same DBT's prove all amps, DAC's, cables etc etc sound the same - its all just the 'hugely powerful effects of psychoacoustics' - and any educated person should be able to see it as plain as day. I really would like to get some of those guys into a room with decent high end gear and pull the plugs out of their ears.

Thanks
Bill

[blakey72]

So is there a right or wrong? Do they sound the same or different? Or is it like the speaker cables, no one really knows?

[rantan]

See my PMs.

[bhobba]

or just buy a Bose Lifestyle system. It won't sound any different either mind you, but it will impress your sensible friends who aren't audio enthusiasts.

Now fair's fair - even these guys freely admit speakers can and do sound different and often by a wide margin. They advocate spending as much as you can on the best speakers you can lay your hands on - but don't worry about the other stuff.

Trouble is you get a genuine revealing speaker and the other stuff becomes rather audible and obvious. I didn't really hear differences in cables until I got my ML1's - it was not that apparent on my Gale 402's and Axis LS88's - I thought I could maybe hear a bit of a difference - but not the big differences some talk about. It was very obvious on the ML1's and I even picked it blind. Of course differences in amps and DAC's were easily heard on them all.

Thanks
Bill

Edited by bhobba, 03 May 2012 - 08:21 AM.

[A J]

Actually just thinking about this concept - Victor I'll swap you my gainclone for your Dartzeel ?? You won't notice the difference

[bhobba]

So is there a right or wrong? Do they sound the same or different? Or is it like the speaker cables, no one really knows?

Seriously there is no right or wrong - its simply what you hear. Listen to equipment and get the stuff you like. If you are really worried about being fooled do a simple blind test but forget this DBT rubbish. IMHO their advocates are simply nitpickers who want to be relieved of the tedium of actually listening to stuff.

Thanks
Bill

Edited by bhobba, 02 May 2012 - 08:55 PM.

[Telecine]

God lives and his name is Simon Wright. He's proved me and all my mates over the past 20 years of hifi that we are all wrong.

Use reverse psychology by postulating that all ISPs and routers are the same, just go with the cheapest. That should liven things up.

BTW, I wish that stereo gear did all sound the same.

Edited by Telecine, 02 May 2012 - 09:02 PM.

[kajak12]

So is there a right or wrong? Do they sound the same or different? Or is it like the speaker cables, no one really knows?

What has whirlpool done to you?
This is old news debated to death my thoughts about whirlpool its kindergarten for audio,

[Jason Sangwin]

So is there a right or wrong?

For as long as it remains a subject that consists of objectivity and subjectivity it continues on and on ...

again, if anybody has figured out how to calibrate people, let us know because we can make this a very short conversation.

Do they sound the same or different?

Different, not a doubt in my mind - if they all sounded the same this would not be such a hot topic. What makes them sound different is the interesting part as we are not only dealing with the sound reaching our ear but also the way our brains decode that information - that's the really hard part.

Or is it like the speaker cables, no one really knows?

In forum land, how many people have you seen that actually conduct testing themselves with other people and also attempt to take measure (I think I have seen about 10 ever) the majority of people seem to be happy with their own personal experiences or are just as happy to make reference to other peoples experiences. I think it's great you stuck to your guns on Whirlpool because every single one of those people responded using nothing but articles from magazines and hearsay - despite you asking for something, at the very least a test report.
I think you have to consider the source of your criticism though, it is less stimulating to argue with a brick wall than it is to share ideas constructively - so try and see that you have nothing to learn from somebody with such an absolute stance on the topic and move to people that are happy to share experiences and testing methods and great resources.

Edited by Jason Sangwin, 02 May 2012 - 09:13 PM.

[surfpurple]

Actually just thinking about this concept - Victor I'll swap you my gainclone for your Dartzeel ?? You won't notice the difference

'dor', can I swap my sony CD player (circa 1990s, for your Cambridge Audio CD transport?

...........................you won't notice any difference !!

[Jason Sangwin]

He's proved me and all my mates over the past 20 years of hifi that we are all wrong.

As there is no reward for being 'the most correct' on a forum, just don't bother with it, I don't anymore.

If people are happy with a $200 AV receiver and a $5 DAC, all the power to them, I don't care as my stuff sounds good and that is all that matters to me really.

I bought the $5 USB DAC and compared it to a few DACs that I have, I would hotly contest that I couldn't hear a difference. I will guarantee you will pick the difference between it and your DACMagic somewhere around 85%-95% in one of those blind tests - remember that the only criteria we were given in that post was that this $5 DAC would not sound any different to ANY DAC we chose. I am satisfied that I have proven that to be incorrect using 6 different DACs, whether in a DVD player or a stand alone unit. So the statement itself is quite broad really when he said all DACs sound the same.

Edited by Jason Sangwin, 02 May 2012 - 09:23 PM.

[Art Vandelay]

I blame Billy Joel!

"Don't waste your money on a new set of speakers,
You get more mileage from a cheap pair of sneakers."

[surfpurple]

A lot of people don't hear a difference between 'mp3' and 'lossless'.

But I know what 'I' would rather listen to!

[Whatmore]

It's frustrating because he owns the website so people believe the puss that comes out of his mouth. Sorry, I just have much more respect for you guys and wanted to know your opinion.

Seems to me there are two possible reasons for this thread
1) someone on a forum that I don't read has said something or done something to annoy you. You've come here to validate your opinion that he's a shmuck.
2) you've come here and asked a Hifi related question on a Hifi forum because you are interested in other peoples opinions - even if they differ from your own.

Have I missed anything?

[fordgtlover]

DACs don't all sound the same. I recently compared a Wolfson WM8741 DAC and an ESS9018 DAC. I could hear clear differences between them, and made my choice between them based on those differences.

Anyone who has ever upgraded a DAC knows the experience of plugging in that new DAC and miraculously hearing instruments in familiar passages that were unrevealed by your previous DAC.

As for amps, a few years back I built an A/B box that allowed me to blindly compare two headphone amps, and there was no doubt that I could hear subtle differences between the two amps I tested.

As for people who hear no difference, I think that are the fortunate ones in many respects in that they won't spend countless hours fussing over components and cables and such while we tortured souls persue our audio perfections. They don't understand our audio pursuits and we may not understand their pursuits, and I'm OK with that.

Edited by fordgtlover, 02 May 2012 - 11:44 PM.

[emesbee]

I don't think its so much that people can't hear the difference, rather that because they don't care about the differences, they don't listen for them. (Does that make sense?)

[Paul Spencer]

I was in one DAC comparison in which it was obvious that they all had different levels of gain in addition to a different frequency response. It was easy to tell due to the instant switch. It is obvious that both changes would skew the results so that it becomes about comparing levels and frequency response and its effect on music. If those differences were removed (these were not cheap DACs) then I suspect results would have been all over the place.

So where is this thread?

[blakey72]

Seems to me there are two possible reasons for this thread
1) someone on a forum that I don't read has said something or done something to annoy you. You've come here to validate your opinion that he's a shmuck.
2) you've come here and asked a Hifi related question on a Hifi forum because you are interested in other peoples opinions - even if they differ from your own.

Have I missed anything?

It's number 2 Whatmore. I started to doubt my own knowledge and wanted the opinions of some of you guys whom I consider to have greater knowledge than I. So it's really nothing to do with being annoyed.

[Whatmore]

It's number 2 Whatmore. I started to doubt my own knowledge and wanted the opinions of some of you guys whom I consider to have greater knowledge than I. So it's really nothing to do with being annoyed.

So I guess the barbed comments aimed at Simon Wright were not really relevant then?

Funny thing is I think he's wrong but not for the obvious reasons

Edited by Whatmore, 03 May 2012 - 10:33 AM.

[Simon Wright]

Now fair's fair - even these guys freely admit speakers can and do sound different and often by a wide margin. They advocate spending as much as you can on the best speakers you can lay your hands on - but don't worry about the other stuff.

Not quite.

• Your amplifier needs to have the necessary raw power available. Amplifiers are effectively transparent when driven within their tolerances, but they do sound different when they approach distortion, and many mainstream brands will run into severe harmonic distortion well before they reach their claimed power limits.
  
• Your room matters nearly as much as your speakers. Typical modern lounge room environments (sparse furnishings, hard floors) will colour the sound to a greater degree than the difference between two respectable brands of speaker. In short, if your room is ****, the best speakers aren't going to improve matters.
  
• Most small rooms barely need more than 10 watts of transparent amplificaton for a satisfyingly loud experience.
  
• Speaker wire should be made of copper, and of sufficient gauge for the length required. http://en.wikipedia....wire#Wire_gauge
  
• Yes, it's possible to ruin the sound of a DAC. For example, you could place it on a computer motherboard right next to a couple of high powered CPUs and GPUs. The comment by Jason Sangwin earlier is about right.

I have no personal beef with the audiophile world, it's an inevitable side-effect of psychoacoustics. You can buy the most expensive wire you like if it makes you feel happy. But if I'm going to suggest how other people should spend their money, I'm going to base those recommendations on objective evidence.

[Whatmore]

Aah there he is....