64 replies to this topic

[LuzArt]

I'm fantasising about one cone/near full range speakers. What advantages are there over multi cone/crossover speakers? What downsides? Do full range cones die sooner? What brands/sizes do you recommend as a first pair?

[houdinifangs]

I recommend you jump on your bicycle and ride down to Krispy Kables and check out the Hoyt-Bedfords and WLM's (ok their coaxial speakers) to find out for your self. I find they reproduce music with greater realism and engagement than many 2/3 designs at the same price. To me they sound more like live music.

[LogicprObe]

I recommend you jump on your bicycle and ride down to Krispy Kables and check out the Hoyt-Bedfords and WLM's (ok their coaxial speakers) to find out for your self. I find they reproduce music with greater realism and engagement than many 2/3 designs at the same price. To me they sound more like live music.

That depends what you mean by 'live' music.

Most sound reinforcement systems you listen to are 2/3/4 active crossovers.

[Nigel]

Crossovers are a problem. Unless they are the highest quality then they have a noticeable affect on the presentation.
Going without often sounds very nice, unless the cone travels alot which means loud or bass. This movement distorts the highher freqs coming off that cone and gets worse with the distance travelled. Soft mainly midrange (voice and say guitar) can be beautiful, Led Zepplin ?? Nope. Anything extending the frequencies top and bottom and more then soft listening can be like having teeth pulled.

[houdinifangs]

That depends what you mean by 'live' music.

Most sound reinforcement systems you listen to are 2/3/4 active crossovers.

Like there is guitarist sitting in your room.

Crossovers are a problem. Unless they are the highest quality then they have a noticeable affect on the presentation.
Going without often sounds very nice, unless the cone travels alot which means loud or bass. This movement distorts the highher freqs coming off that cone and gets worse with the distance travelled. Soft mainly midrange (voice and say guitar) can be beautiful, Led Zepplin ?? Nope. Anything extending the frequencies top and bottom and more then soft listening can be like having teeth pulled.

Kinda agree but adding a sub makes a huge difference and found even playing thrash metal loud sounds great. Clearly I am not a purist and happily concede that full range speakers sound different and suit everyone.

[CP_]

Luz - pop over! I'd love to have you around. I've got some Hoyt-Bedford Type 2s and some WLM Divas at the moment.

[LuzArt]

Yes the Hoyt's were something i've looked at, i'll be in touch CP. Houdini I see you withdrew your Type 1's from sale, hard to let go?

The idea of a direct signal appeals. That said someone like pete_mac rebuilding crossovers with improved components is an interesting idea too.

My birthday is later in the year plus i'm moving house around then too and hoping for a better sounding room, hence a bit of research for possibly some nicer speakers.

[robin-hobart]

Best system I have heard used Coral Beta10 full-rangers. At 103db sensitivity and driven by a 300b SET the match is made in heaven.
But many members of this forum detest single-cone drivers. Maybe because many (most?) have a characteristic upper-mid 'hump' in their FR and can be a bit 'shouty'.
But well implemented, the presence, imaging (single point source?) and speed can be amazing (IMO).
They do tend to be unforgiving on poor recordings.

[houdinifangs]

Yes indeed there're mine for a long while now but will be adding some sub support. The 1's do amazing things with the human voice and acoustic instruments but I was less sure with the harder stuff. I borrowed a sub the other day and the good qualities stayed but the sound is now HUGE!

The sub also eliminated the shoutiness when played loud.

Edited by houdinifangs, 30 April 2012 - 09:36 PM.

[GregWormald]

Go have a listen, and buy what you like--despite whatever the specifics are.
The best and worst sounds can be the same basic type with different implementations.
There is nothing perfect in sound reproduction, only the compromises you prefer.
i.e.--I prefer vinyl, despite the surface noise. Others can't stand the surface noise and find it ruins their enjoyment.

Greg

[Tubularbells]

Going without often sounds very nice, unless the cone travels alot which means loud or bass. This movement distorts the highher freqs coming off that cone and gets worse with the distance travelled. Soft mainly midrange (voice and say guitar) can be beautiful, Led Zepplin ?? Nope. Anything extending the frequencies top and bottom and more then soft listening can be like having teeth pulled.

Dont find this with my Omega XRS8's. Play everything from Bohren and der Club of Gore to Wolves In The Throne Room and it all sounds good to my ears. Thing that really stands out for me is the imaging you get, nothing ive heard comes close.

[Nada]

Full range speakers dont usually do the frequency extremes ie they arent full range. Bummer.

Active speakers can do the full range without crossover hassles but can need an organic source to sound nice.

[CP_]

Although they don't do the full range, you can quite easily compliment them with a sub to cover bass if you need, and it's not as much of an issue with the high frequencies as it would seem on paper imo. What you miss out on up there, you gain in ridiculously open/airy soundstage. They're certainly not without their compromises though, I'll agree. But I believe to get the same enjoyment factor from a multi driver speaker you need to spend significantly more.

[djb]

i have a pair of alted 4020! 15" full range from the 60's
very 'musical'
sound great at mid volume levels previous owner had added peerless tweeters but they were disconnected
before connecting the tweeters they sounded fat and a little flabby
connecting the tweeters added some tightness and clarity to the sound
therefore i differ from those wanting to add bass i needed added treble

not quite full range any more but a fine pair of speakers

[pulinap]

The Rethms I have are half full-range half active, combining positives of full-range with active speakers.

http://www.stereo.ne...326#entry690326

[Full Range]

I have only used Full Range speakers in the last 18-20 years
To answer your question and not get into a bum fight about bass ect also the very fact that they don't have a crossover means that you listen to the music without another filter in the line

I find them very precise as in one can hear precise diction, precise instrument definition, precise multi layer definition
With bass - granted that to some people they lack bass however please don't confuse acurate bass with the thump thump thump that's mixed into the music these days
Put them in a suitable enclosure and, you will have plenty of bass
They will handle just about any style of music but excel in music that has many layers and the high sensitivity brings out sounds that are lost or blended on other speakers

[atilsley]

If you consider fostex, lowther, corel, audio nirvana etc in a mid-large horn, you'll get the best of both worlds. I've built many.

It's a fun journey, for sure.

Don't discount the quality co-axes out there....tannoy, altec, etc. Check out the stunning 604 15-inch two-way from great plains audio, or the smaller 12 incher.

For new producers, check out radian.

Also. Check out the full range forum website, plus the diy'ers at the spawn/frugal website (planet 10)

Whatever you choose, seriously consider SET valve gear.

Andrew

Andrew

[planet10]

The big advantage of a FRis no cross-over. To quote Geddes, cross-overs are evil.

With no discontinity -- physically or in timbre -- they have a seemlessness you very rarely get in a multi-way.

The impedance curve of a FR is usually more benign (partly due to no XO) so amps are usually happier -- paticularily SEs (tube or SS), Class D, and ChipAmps

No single driver is truly full-range (but then neither are most multi-ways), but the best will do 9 octaves. But not without compromise.

Go big to get low & get big dynamics and you'll sacrifice top or DDR. Add a whizzer to get back some top and you now have a mechanical XO. Use a back-loaded horn and you get a discontinuity between what radiates directly, and what comes out the horn (assuming a good horn, the output of the mouth is an odd number of half-wavelengths time delayed at the acoustic XO point).

Go small to get better top and DDR and you give up ultimate dynamics & loudness (and usually bass extension --CSS EL70 will do 9 octaves).

Hinted at in an earlier post is FAST. Considered FR but really a 2-way with a low XO point (where much of the evil of XOs can be banished) with a FR as a mid-tweeter & dedicated woofers (not subwoofers). These can near give you it all.

The best FR systems are DIY (whether you build them or pay or bribe someone to do it for you), And give you by far the greatest choice. Lots & lots of proven designs available.

And if on a budget no multiway is gonna out do a FR when it comes to emotionally connect you to the music.

Just like everything there are crappy FRs (and throwing $$$ at it isn't a panacea -- take the Fostex FE138eSR for instance), but of late a large number of really good ones can be had and some for surprisingly little cost. Which one suits you depends on room, ancilliaries, music you listen too, your taste (or to paraphrase -- what compromises best suit you), how loud...

I love FRs. I have at least a dozen here. And my partner has almost as many at his house. Right now i'm listening to a set of uFonkenSET (with FF85wKen) sitting on top of a prototype helper woofer, each with 2 165mm Mark Audio midbasses. XOed at 100 Hz (should probably be higher but that was what i had hooked up), Sounds fantastic.

The uFonkenSET (SET - special edition trapezoid):


dave

Edited by planet10, 02 May 2012 - 06:29 PM.

[LuzArt]

Thanks all for your input, much appreciated and particularly planet 10 for a lengthy and informative write up. I think having a listen to varied designs will be a good move. I enjoy many styles of music but I think having dedicated stereo pair wo uld be great for very considered recordings; acoustic, classical, even masters etc.

A quality SET amp might have to come after winning the lottery the second time

[Nigel]

Or you have two sets of speakers, 1 FR pair and 1 multi driver for different requirements. Both have strengths/weaknesses.

[LuzArt]

That's what I had in mind Nigel.

[haraldo]

Perhaps this is a derailing to the main question of this thread as these speakers are not one-cone, but line source and they use a supertweeter, main drivers cover most of the range though from 80 Hz to 10 KHz and there's no low-pass filter ....

Of course you can complain that they are line source up to 10Khz and point source above that..... I couldn't hear any issues with this....

And they need a pair of subwoofers too....

So they almost qualify.....

But then again, these are so far the best spekers I ever heard:
Adyton imagic....

They utilize quite simple vifa fullrange drivers and a ribbon that's said to extend to 100KHz

I been fantasizing about a DIY project.... something similar to this, Transmission line loaded though

Edited by haraldo, 08 May 2012 - 07:24 AM.

[Paul Spencer]

With a fullranger you get a point source which is good for imaging, as well as no crossover. Coherence and simplicity are the advantages. To get true fullrange performance you really do need more than one driver, unless you horn load it in a back loaded horn to get some basss, even then it's a struggle.

Downsides? A midsized driver wil beam at the top. A small driver will still have this problem, but really struggle to even have midrange and maintain decent sensitivity. You will tend to have problems with cone breakup. One solution often used is a larger driver, say 8 - 15" with a whizzer cone to keep the top end up. Those kinds of drivers tend to have some nasty traits that are not easily tamed and many of the better ones are expensive.

With a conventional two way the cone breakup lies outside the passband, and you can filter out the peaks. You cross to a small 1" tweeter which avoids beaming and pushes it's own breakup region up out of the passband. A fullrange driver must deal with cone breakup in the passband. That is why you see they often use paper cones that provide damping, and cone breakup becomes part of the sound.

Sometimes the downsides can shout louder than the strengths.

I'm generally not a big fan because I believe the problems of a multi way speaker can be made far less audible with competent design. The main claim to fame with fullrangers seems to be their coherence and imaging, yet the best imaging I've heard so far came from a 5 way speaker!

There are a lot of fullrangers out there and if you have a chance, I wouldn't knock it back. Some guys are smitten by them and I'll admit, I haven't heard that many of them yet.

[planet10]

With a conventional two way the cone breakup lies outside the passband, and you can filter out the peaks. You cross to a small 1" tweeter

With an XO right smack in the the area where the ear is most sensitive, If that is one of the trade-offs you can't live with, you are a candidate for a FR. Or a FAST, a 2-way with the XO below the critical band, where the ear is less sensitive, and the wavelengths at the XO mean that many of the issues involved in XO design go away.

Paul, you'd be surprised how good the diepersion of some of the currently available small FRs.

dave

Edited by planet10, 08 May 2012 - 02:51 PM.

[Paul Spencer]

Having trouble with quoting right now hmmmmm....

"With an XO right smack in the the area where the ear is most sensitive"

We all know the theory, and DIYers obsess over that theoretical problem, but what does it actually translate to in terms of audibility? Which part of what you hear is related to this issue?

"If that is one of the trade-offs you can't live with"

To me this highlights a problem right there. You focus on one area of performance and say "I must avoid that," but if you don't balance it with other concerns then you start making weird choices. The result is often avoiding a small problem and in its place substuting a much bigger one.

IMO a good crossover is far less intrusive than the problems I've heard with fullrangers.

"Paul, you'd be surprised how good the diepersion of some of the currently available small FRs."

Got any dispersion plots? Curious to see them if so.

This could be an interesting DIY project. Start with say a little FR driver like this 5" Tang Band
http://www.parts-exp...tnumber=264-898

I wonder if you have any experience with that one Dave?

Looks like a good allrounder and also quite sensitive. Just add a second .5 driver in a sealed box and perhaps a sub to fill in the bass and you've got a nice simple project. Or add a pair of 8" woofers with a simple first order 300 Hz xo.

[planet10]

I wonder if you have any experience with that one Dave?

It is a very nice driver but suffers from a plasticy colouration.

dave

[Upfront]

The more money spent on separate drivers and crossover parts can be spent on a pair of decent drivers.

Edited by Upfront, 08 May 2012 - 08:18 PM.

[Tubularbells]

Picked up a REL sub on the weekend and am very impressed with the difference it makes so far. Still need to fine tune but the extra weight it adds to the bottom octave is fantastic. Mines setup with a volume of 3 out of the available 24 clicks so plenty of headroom to spare. What swayed me with the REL is that it doesnt interfear with you existing speakers (which is key with single drivers IMO) and is tapped of your amp to help with the integration. Must say the lower octave sounds like it coming from the speakers and not eminating from elsewhere in the room

[haraldo]

Picked up a REL sub on the weekend and am very impressed with the difference it makes so far. Still need to fine tune but the extra weight it adds to the bottom octave is fantastic. Mines setup with a volume of 3 out of the available 24 clicks so plenty of headroom to spare. What swayed me with the REL is that it doesnt interfear with you existing speakers (which is key with single drivers IMO) and is tapped of your amp to help with the integration. Must say the lower octave sounds like it coming from the speakers and not eminating from elsewhere in the room

Very good stuff, is there a plan for a second sub too?

Edited by haraldo, 09 May 2012 - 08:00 PM.

[Tubularbells]

Second sub? ahhh no dont think the room could take it It was funny a said to Nick at Carlton Audio that i need something with plenty of gain to match my high efficiency speakers. Well I asked for it as the REL is perhaps overkill for my room and its just the middle child in the "R" range!!!

[LuzArt]

Interesting TB. Are they Hoyt Bedfords?

Edited by LuzArt, 09 May 2012 - 08:28 PM.

[Tubularbells]

No there HB's cousins, the Omega 8XRS.

[haraldo]

Second sub? ahhh no dont think the room could take it It was funny a said to Nick at Carlton Audio that i need something with plenty of gain to match my high efficiency speakers. Well I asked for it as the REL is perhaps overkill for my room and its just the middle child in the "R" range!!!

Overkill, are you kidding me...... if you have the space you should try two subs

[caveport]

I recently picked up a pair of Goodmans full range GLL 15 speakers. I quite like them even though they are hardly top-end. My main setup is Tannoy 10" Caenarvon concentrics from 1984.
I like the point source benefits of excellent imaging and good off-axis high frequency response. My speaker selection criteria has always been simple; do I stop listening to the speaker & listen to the music while auditioning?
So far the Tannoy's are the only commercial domestic speaker that had this effect on me. But everyone's ears are different, hence the wide variety of designs that are available.

[haraldo]

I recently picked up a pair of Goodmans full range GLL 15 speakers. I quite like them even though they are hardly top-end. My main setup is Tannoy 10" Caenarvon concentrics from 1984.
I like the point source benefits of excellent imaging and good off-axis high frequency response. My speaker selection criteria has always been simple; do I stop listening to the speaker & listen to the music while auditioning?
So far the Tannoy's are the only commercial domestic speaker that had this effect on me. But everyone's ears are different, hence the wide variety of designs that are available.

Pics plz

[Art Vandelay]

The main claim to fame with fullrangers seems to be their coherence and imaging, yet the best imaging I've heard so far came from a 5 way speaker!

Yes, there's definitely more to imaging than just linear phase response. Decay response is critical and use of multi driver arrays offers a much better chance of achieving that. Multi driver arrays also offer a flatter power response which means a more controlled off axis response.

However, IME where FR wins out is generally with the stability of the image and really accurate localisation of instruments. Although it can be achieved with a multi driver array it requires extreme precision of driver and component tolerance.

[planet10]

...... if you have the space you should try two subs

2 woofers properly placed can go a long way to evening out the room response in the extreme LF, 2 or more are highly recommended

dave

[Tubularbells]

2 woofers properly placed can go a long way to evening out the room response in the extreme LF, 2 or more are highly recommended

dave

Managed to sneak the REL into the listening room without the misses noticing so am not about to stretch my luck with a second...well at least not yet

[surfpurple]

Not sure if I'm on the same page as you all are, but when you say 'full-range' is that implying just '1' cone in the speaker to deliver the whole frequency of sounds?

Because I used to have a set of 'Bose' 6"x9" car speakers that only had one big 6x9 inch cone! They looked 'cheap' compared to all my previous sony, alpine, etc coaxial speakers. BUT they delivered a real 'live' sound that blew me away! I had never heard such dynamics from a speaker before, and realised that bose was doing something completely different from the rest....that 'worked'!

If they were classed as 'full range' speakers then I'm all ears to find out what a hi-fi equivalent for my system could do!

[alistairm]

Yes mate - one driver doing the lot. Has it's own magic. And no crossover to worry about.

Definitely worth looking into and plenty of great examples to be had for a good price.

[planet10]

Definitely worth looking into and plenty of great examples to be had for a good price.

Especially if you diy.

dave

[shaun.o]

This could be an interesting DIY project. Start with say a little FR driver like this 5" Tang Band

I started down the DIY path about 8 years ago - but built two "Flexy" tables and two CRT projector coffee table boxes first, then gave up on DIY speakers & bought some instead. I'd looked at a few different designs of 2-way & 3-way with Vifa drivers & prebuilt crossovers, and also considered a fostex-based FR after a mate started to build some.

The TB driver above looks interesting & has got me thinking about DIY FR again

What sort of volume would be best for a driver that size? The "ikea wooden salad bowl" 9L spheres over at diyaudio look interesting -

[Full Range]

Not sure if I'm on the same page as you all are, but when you say 'full-range' is that implying just '1' cone in the speaker to deliver the whole frequency of sounds?

Because I used to have a set of 'Bose' 6"x9" car speakers that only had one big 6x9 inch cone! They looked 'cheap' compared to all my previous sony, alpine, etc coaxial speakers. BUT they delivered a real 'live' sound that blew me away! I had never heard such dynamics from a speaker before, and realised that bose was doing something completely different from the rest....that 'worked'!

If they were classed as 'full range' speakers then I'm all ears to find out what a hi-fi equivalent for my system could do!

Yes one speaker without a crossover
If you are interested in my DIY Nirvana build you can visit this thread http://www.stereo.ne...__fromsearch__1

Edited by Full Range, 16 May 2012 - 09:26 AM.

[surfpurple]

Thanks Full Range, I will check it out.

[Upfront]

Are you still using the Mundorff silver/gold wire fullrange?