38 replies to this topic

[pete_mac]

I thought I'd share some pics and info regarding a niiiiice Yamaha CA-1010 that I'm in the process of recapping for The Fez.

This thing is near mint - it is in incredible physical condition for its age and doesn't appear to have been thrashed.

A unique feature of this amp is that it can operate in either Class A or Class AB via a switch on the front panel.

The build quality is typical vintage Yamaha brilliance. Pics don't convey the size of this beast - well over 20kgs and physically imposing!

A peek under the cover:




A pair of big 18000uf power supply filter caps:




Note the level of detail here. The knobs on the front panel are connected to the switches on the actual PCB via metal rods and universal joints. The bean-counters wouldn't allow this kind of stuff these days!




The underside of the amp:




Some of the capacitors that will be going inside this sucker. Panasonic FC and FM caps, some Panasonic ECQ-V film caps, and also a bunch of Nichicon Muse ES bipolar caps and Nichicon Gold Tune 22000uf power suppply filter caps:








Note the size of the original caps vs the newer caps - in almost all cases the modern capacitors are smaller in size due to improved construction techniques and improved electrolyte:




The driver boards are a bit of a pain in this model as the output transistors are mounted through the heatsink and into sockets on the driver board PCB. This necessitates the removal of the output transistors to access the rear of the driver boards. The upside is that there is no excuse for not fitting new thermal paste to each of the transistors when reinstalling them. The heatsinks look small in the pics but they are quite chunky with lots of thermal mass.






One set of output transistors:




New capacitors fitted to a driver board:




The VD1212 diodes have also been replaced with a pair of series'd 1N4148 diodes which perform the same function and have the same voltage drop as the original VD1212s. These are more reliable and help to keep the bias rock-solid.




I'll post further pics as the build progresses. I'm REALLY looking forward to hearing this puppy once the full recap is completed!

[didier]

Beautiful work and impressive looking piece of gear, Pete and Fez. Those uni-joints are fantastic! I look forward to the listening impressions when completed.
Didier

[Dismord]

I thought I'd share some pics and info regarding a niiiiice Yamaha CA-1010 that I'm in the process of recapping for The Fez.

Thanks for a fabulous series of shots. You're dead right about the bean counters not allowing that degree of engineering these days.
Interesting though that Yamaha have bought back the styling in some of their recent gear. I wonder if the insides measure up though ?
Is this a one off job Pete or do you make a living out of refurbishing vintage electronics?

[pete_mac]

Thanks for a fabulous series of shots. You're dead right about the bean counters not allowing that degree of engineering these days.
Interesting though that Yamaha have bought back the styling in some of their recent gear. I wonder if the insides measure up though ?
Is this a one off job Pete or do you make a living out of refurbishing vintage electronics?

Thanks mate.

Definitely not a job... my family would be living on baked beans and two minute noodles if this were the case!

It's a hobby/passion that I share with Dad (skippy124). I like being able to bring old gear up-to-spec and giving it a new lease on life.

[Dismord]

This leaves me wondering if anyone in Oz does this kind of restoration work on vintage gear. The nearest I know of, http://classaaudio.com.au/, aren't too keen on taking on older gear and charge like a wounded bull. I have a vintage Akai AT 2450 tuner that sounds so much better than anything modern (other than my Magnum Dynalab MD-90T ) but it's so old I'm sure some of the caps are nearing the end of their use by date. Makes me nervous.

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Edited by Dismord, 26 April 2012 - 12:23 PM.

[pete_mac]

You're right about some vintage tuners sounding great. I heard a nice Pioneer TX-7500 the other day and it sounded brilliant!

Recapping and restoring a tuner is relatively straight-forward apart from the realignment necessary after you replace capacitors in the tuner section.

If you stick to the power supply only then this is generally unnecessary.

Dad and I have yet to tackle a tuner realignment yet, but I think Dad is keen to add the necessary equipment to his arsenal some day.

[datafone]

That's a hell of a lot of amplifier!

Nice work Pete

[holdencaulfield2007]

Great looking amp and it looks to be a quality piece of engineering. Your posts about these classic restorations are very interesting and informative. I hope you and your dad enjoy doing the "hard yakka" as much as I enjoy reading about it!

[skippy124]

Good work Pete (even thought I am a bit biased)

This leaves me wondering if anyone in Oz does this kind of restoration work on vintage gear. The nearest I know of, http://classaaudio.com.au/, aren't too keen on taking on older gear and charge like a wounded bull. I have a vintage Akai AT 2450 tuner that sounds so much better than anything modern (other than my Magnum Dynalab MD-90T ) but it's so old I'm sure some of the caps are nearing the end of their use by date. Makes me nervous.

Send it to Sydney and Pete and I will look after it

Great looking amp and it looks to be a quality piece of engineering. Your posts about these classic restorations are very interesting and informative. I hope you and your dad enjoy doing the "hard yakka" as much as I enjoy reading about it!

As Pete said, it is a shared hobby/passion we have, and there is a real sense of satisfaction restoring VIntage gear back to a close to original performance and looks as possible

for example -

http://www.stereo.ne...183#entry577183

I'll have to post up another couple of repair/restoration threads.... I'll be doing a complete restoration of an AU717 shortly, and the "Hard Yakka" has its rewards, nearly all the gear in my Vintage collection was acquired not working.

Cheers

John

Edited by skippy124, 26 April 2012 - 09:06 PM.

[caddisgeek]

again you guys remind me I really need to recap my Crown power amp, I better start polishing my soldering skills.

Great work as usual pete and skippy, love seeing that old gear bough back to life

[LuzArt]

Looks great Pete. Yes the newer Yamaha's have harked back to the vintage designs.

[LogicprObe]

Great amp and it looks like Pete is doing a great job.

Makes my old 70's Yammis look like toys!

[pete_mac]

Great amp and it looks like Pete is doing a great job.

Makes my old 70's Yammis look like toys!

Thanks mate. She's a big'un!

Update time...

The power supply/protection board has been fully recapped now.




Both driver boards are now fully recapped, 1N4148'd and the transistors have been cleaned, re-greased and re-seated. The original paste was quite dry and flaky so I'm glad that I was 'forced' to reseat them due to the driver board/heatsink design. Although, I always do the thermal paste regardless, so it's a moot point. Note where the anodising has faded over time.








The lovely Nichicon Gold Tune caps are also now installed. The lugs on the caps required minor trimming to fit the PCB onto which they are mounted, but apart from judicious use of solderwick to remove the old solder (as well as me melting a bit of insulation on one of the orange wires... all fixed now though!) it was a fairly straight-forward job, albeit very time consuming! The fiddly stuff always takes far longer than anticipated, but of course the results are worth it. An AXON polypropylene bypass cap was installed across each of the filter caps for good measure.






Before:




After:




They sure are big suckers! Noticeably taller than the original capacitors.

The only thing remaining are a few caps on the tone control board and the meter board. Skippy124 is doing his LED conversion to this amp, so I'll throw the few remaining caps his way for installation whilst he can easily access these boards. Not long to go now... nearly finito!

Looking forward to firing her up soon.

[datafone]

Should be interesting once you can have a listen

[nothing1]

great work, love the pictures. This is something that i would love to learn how to do as i am a fiddler at heart, maybe one day.

[skippy124]

Another update.......

The LED Meter illumination conversion has been completed........





Stephen can select the level of illumination, this will be an easy change to make once he has a look at it "in the flesh" - I think it looks pretty good at the moment but I can't remember the level of illumination we set on the CA-810.

Cheers

John

[pete_mac]

Woo hoo! Looks great Dad. Love your work

[skippy124]

The CA-1010 has had a happy reunion with its owner today, and I think both are looking forward to many happy times together in the future.

A final photo..........




Cheers

John

[pete_mac]

Gee it looks great!

[pchan]

Hi Pete Mac,
Next time you or your dad attempt a restoration, especially vintage amps, once you guys recap and replace most of the components you have in mind and finally have it working see if you can change the pots in them and check SQ B4 & after!

[pete_mac]

It's not really feasible to go through and replace all of the pots, as it is quite hard to find exact replacements for many of them in terms of physical dimensions and mounting method. Some of the volume pots are particularly unique (eg custom ALPS volume pots in many Sansuis).

We generally tend to stick with a deoxit treatment for dirty pots, or a contact cleaner/lubricant. It does the trick.

[Telecine]

Incredible work Pete and John. I bet the owner is happy.

[GFuNK]

Great work guys, it looks fantastic!

Edited by GFuNK, 13 May 2012 - 08:58 AM.

[The Fez]

Yes I'm very happy with the result. Both John & Pete have done a superb job on this amplifier. I highly recommend their services. And here's a quick pic of Pete's next job..The 1010's little brother

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[LuzArt]

I want one if these Yamaha's, they look incredible. Fez, give me the low down on this series, PM if you want or post in here.

Sent from my GT-I9100T using Tapatalk 2

[skippy124]

Another couple of photos.......

[The Fez]

Another update.......

The LED Meter illumination conversion has been completed........





Stephen can select the level of illumination, this will be an easy change to make once he has a look at it "in the flesh" - I think it looks pretty good at the moment but I can't remember the level of illumination we set on the CA-810.

Cheers

John

...A quick note regarding the LED conversion. All my LED conversions on any classic gear I get done are reversable. The LEDS can be taken out and the original incandescent illumination can easily be restored.

[pchan]

It's not really feasible to go through and replace all of the pots, as it is quite hard to find exact replacements for many of them in terms of physical dimensions and mounting method. Some of the volume pots are particularly unique (eg custom ALPS volume pots in many Sansuis).

We generally tend to stick with a deoxit treatment for dirty pots, or a contact cleaner/lubricant. It does the trick.

Agreed, some pots arent easy to replace, but my experience with preamps is that the biggest wear and tear is the volume pot, you dont even notice it until a change is made! Depending on the materials used try use a conductive grease after you have cleaned them! FWIW all pots wear out regardless of manufacturer this includes Alps.

[The Fez]

I want one if these Yamaha's, they look incredible. Fez, give me the low down on this series, PM if you want or post in here.

Sent from my GT-I9100T using Tapatalk 2

I'm no real guru wuth respect to the NS series, and others here will likely have more knowledge than myself.

The Yamaha NS (Natural Sound) series was made during the 1970's in Japan. There were a number of models made over 2 series model productions. Integrated amplifiers, tuners, receivers, turntables, cassette decks and speakers were all made during this period. Power and preamps or control amps also. The B1 power amp has become very collectable. Dating from 1974.

Arguably, the most famous and well knowm model, being the NS 1000M monitor speakers. These speakers debut in 1974, with the beryllium diaphram.

With respect to the integrated amplifiers there were a number of models made. In the earlier part of the 70's from 1974 I think, the series was denoted by "00" in terms of the numbers. These were CA400, 600, 800 and the CA1000. The CA800 & 1000 debuted the switchable ClassA function. The CA1000 is still keenly sought.

In the later part of the decade 1977-78. the "10" replaced the "00" in the series and we have the:

CA410, 510, 610, 710, 810, 1010 and the TOTL CA-2010. The rated power increased as you went up the series. The 810 - 75w, 1010-100w and 2010 120w.

There were also corresponding receivers made, that had the same amps in them as the integrated's with added tuner. Certainly the keepers are the CR1010, CR2010 and the very rare and massive CR3020 at some 37kg and around 170w continuous at 8ohms. Yamaha's entrant in the receiver war during the late 70's. Actually I think the 3020 was one of the smaller receivers at the time, with other manufacturers such as Sansui and Pioneer producing even bigger beasts!

In terms of sound, the Yamaha NS series has been decribed as clean, neutral, natural!!, boring, bland, neither warm nor cold. Revealing and critical. I like the sound, and I particularly like the asthetic of the amps. Their design also being a big part for classic collectors. I like their almost austere and machined front panels.

More info here --- http://www.thevintageknob.org/

[Cyber_Murphy]

Hi Pete,

Great write up!

Where did you get the Muse ES Bi-Polar caps from..?? I can't seem to find anyone in Aus that stocks them.??

Cheers..
CM

[pete_mac]

Hi Pete,

Great write up!

Where did you get the Muse ES Bi-Polar caps from..?? I can't seem to find anyone in Aus that stocks them.??

Cheers..
CM

Thanks mate!

I source the Nichicon Muse, Gold Tunes and Elna Silmics from partsconnexion. I haven't found a local supplier for these.

Edited by pete_mac, 04 June 2012 - 04:13 PM.

[datafone]

hificollective have them too, and ATM you can use a code for 10% off due the the Queens thingy.

[Cyber_Murphy]

Thanks guys for the suggestions!!

Seems obvious that people would want a "good quality' cap for the signal path, so it's strange that no one here stocks such components..

Ta
CM

[The Fez]

Wow -- I've has this amp in rotation lately and giving it a real good listen. It gets better and better.

 

Teamed it up to a pair of QUADS I bought recently (thanks to MuciscinaJag) and it blew me away. That re-cap needs some time to settle in. My first impression, some time ago (and not uncommon for those that have ungergone a full re-cap operation) was --- where has all that warm vintage (boomy bass) sound gone? But its just tightened everything up.   

 

For any with a vintage piece that you really want to listen to --  I fully recommend a recap.

 

My Rotel RA-1412 will be on Pete's bench shortly...

 

 

[pete_mac]

Glad you're still enjoying the 1010 mate. She's a beast!

Looking forward to tackling the Rotel.

[Sierra]

Pete & John ... I love reading your restoration threads ...

 

There was some beautiful gear built in the 60's, 70's & 80's and you guys are helping to keep some of that gear alive and bringing joy to a new generation of listeners.

[In Finite]

Great post and very interesting read, great photographs too. Thanks Fez for the description of the series, i was just about to ask what year that amp was released and i had already guessed about 1978, so i'm happy i was close.

 

I have a couple of general questions (you can tell i'm a novice), first is, how do you know when the caps are needing replacing? Just due to it's age? Obviously they don't all go at once, but do they go out of tolerance, or does the material they are made of change its characteristics? Maybe the dielectric breaks down? And how do you 'hear' that the caps are 'wearing out/breaking down'?

 

Do they deteriorate with just age (ie, even if the unit is not switched on for 20 years) or only when they are in use over a long period?  Eg, does constant heat cycling cause quicker wearing out?

 

does the same thing go for resistors as well?  I have a Denon Optical Class A, early 80s - i'm sure the caps would be getting on in that as well.

 

Lastly, once you have completed all the component replacements and then listen to it, wouldn't it be rather difficult to pinpoint exactly how the sound has changed or how much it has improved? Since now you don't have the unit in its original configuration to do a side by side listening comparison.  Of course it will sound 'different', but do you have test equipment to measure distortions, freq ranges, separation etc?  Or just use your ears, trying to remember the old sound and maybe feeling the sound is cleaner or more detailed etc.

 

Sorry for so many questions. Thanks!

[pete_mac]

Howdy,

 

capacitors have a rated lifespan. There's some good reading here:

 

http://www.elna-amer...reliability.php

 

The lifespan depends on a number of things - capacitor design and quality, ripple current, voltage, temperature. The lifespan of a capacitor typically doubles for every 10 degree reduction in temperature, so a 1000hr 85 degrees capacitor becomes a 2000hr at 75 degrees, 4000hr at 65 degrees, 8000hr at 55 degrees and so on. Using this method, you can see how 3000hr 105 degree caps are way ahead in terms of rated lifespan.

 

This lifespan rating also assumes the capacitor is subjected to maximum rated voltage and ripple current, so in many cases the rated lifespan will be even better than the above numbers.

 

Capacitors typically don't go 'pop' or stop working once they pass their projected lifespan. They become leaky, increase in ESR, vary in capacitance. For signal path capacitors this has clear implications on sound. For other decoupling capacitors and power supply capacitors, this reduces the ability of the power supplies thoughout the amp to deliver the intended voltages. The impacts upon sound quality are gradual and it's easy for a listener to get used to the sound and not notice a clear 'tipping point' where the sound quality becomes noticeably worse due to the incremental nature of the deterioration.

 

The results of recapping an amp depends on the circuit topography of the amp, the condition of the amp and original capacitors, the nature of the owner's sytem, and whether the owner is a 'critical listener'. I've yet to restore an amp where there hasn't been a tangible improvement in bass tightness (boomy bass be gone!), lower noise floor, better separation between elements of the sound stage, and cleaner overall music reproduction. Sometimes the improvements are subtle, and sometimes they are clear as day. Your question about gauging the extent and nature of such changes is valid... it's not possible to do A/B comparisons due to the time taken to restore an amp. One must rely upon one's memory, and this opens up the age-old argument of expectation bias and subjective opinion. You can also take before and after readings for frequency response, distortion, power output etc to objectively quantify the effects of restoration work.

 

It's not just about sound quality though. Future reliability is just as important. If a cap does deteriorate to the stage where it goes kaput and takes out other surrounding components  (some of which may be unobtanium on vintage amps) then it makes sense to do whatever you can to avoid this scenario.

 

Restoration should also include the replacement of known troublesome resistors, diodes and whatnot. There's a treasure-trove of info on audiokarma.org which makes this task easier. Not all resistors need to be replaced - only fuse resistors which change in value, or other faulty resistors. Wholesale resistor changes (particularly through the preamp stages) can alter the sonic signature of a vintage amp to some degree (ie. replacing all signal-path carbon composition resistors with modern tight tolerance metal films).

[In Finite]

That was a great answer and much appreciated for taking the time to answer all my pesky questions! Even the resistor one which I find very interesting. It has given me a new outlook on hifi electronics restoration. Well written too and along with amplifier resto, I’m sure you could be equally adept as a technical writer.  The preventative reason is one I hadn’t thought of also, so another good motive for restoring the old classics. Also amazing about the life of capacitors vs the operating temperature. I think that doing what you do and with your experience, would give you the title of being a critical listener and so you would more easily discern subtle improvements where the part time or novice listener may not.  All in all, it really sounds like a very worthwhile endeavour, although not cheap, but well worthwhile considering the price of new amplifiers which you would need to buy that are capable of giving a similar quality of sound to these older ones.  I also pop in on Audio Karma occasionally and there is a business that advertises on there that I have seen listing capacitors for well over $100 and up to $180 each !  Most likely these are the special crossover types, but still, its shows the quality, materials and rarity of them.

 

Thanks again.