104 replies to this topic

[Davey Willo]

I shall apologise up front as I think I am about to write a short novel to describe an issue that I am suffering from which is really starting to ruin my enjoyment of my music

My Music/HT room is a 5m x 4m rectangle, I have French doors at one end and a large floor to ceiling window at the other end which takes up most of that end wall.

Because of both ends being glass I was forced to set up my HT and speakers facing across the room and not along the room, everything is positioned symmetrically within this room i.e. the distance from each speaker to the end walls are identical. Not the best for standing waves etc I know but it is what it is. The room is on a slab and carpeted, facing the system is a long sofa, I mean really long, the sofa sits about 600mm off the back wall and the speakers are 2.7m apart

Now this has not been a problem in the past, movies are great and my music has been glorious, but just recently I’ve picked up on, and now can’t stop hearing something that is actually difficult to describe, a low frequency resonance, an ‘in your face’, pushed to the front emphasis on certain low notes that has become damn right annoying.

I’ve recently upgraded from a pair of Acoustic Energy AE1’s, although a seriously sweet sounding bookshelf monitor, they just didn’t have what it takes when cranking out some Led Zep or Floyd, so I was on the look out for something to give me more bang when I wanted it. I wasn’t really looking for floorstanders as I felt that they would have been overkill in my environment (this has now been proven) and so had the opportunity to try a pair of second hand B&W 805’s, now these aren’t going to blow doors off but they increased the bass massively and sounded fantastic too so I bought them…………

Now here’s the confusing bit, all I remember from when I first played them was that I was in heaven, they sounded so good that I cancelled a home demo of other speakers as I’d made up my mind, I had to own the 805’s, but recently I’ve started hearing this emphasis of lower notes that seem to make these notes more powerful than all of the other notes, does that make sense?

Not all music by any means, not all tracks but there are most definitely albums and or songs that I’ve stopped listening to now as I know that they have a lot of, and emphasise, these low frequency notes in an uncomfortable and annoying way.

So my first thought was my speakers were failing, I approached my local West Coast Hifi in Joondalup who I want to give kudos too as they loaned me a pair of $4000 B&W CM9’s knowing that no sale was pending and for no other reason than to help me identify my problem, great guys.

Well it didn’t help me identify what the ‘problem’ is, but it ‘did’ take my 805’s out of the equation as it took exactly 30 seconds to realise that these bigger beefier more bass inducing speakers only exacerbated the problem, infact they were horrible.

So now I’d convinced myself that it was all down to room acoustics and I could relax and think about acoustic treatments for the room. I told myself that “Surely the fact that I’m firing these across a space of lets say 3m once they are pulled out for a listening session is the reason why I’m getting this horrendous low frequency issue” yes?? Well to prove this to myself I decided to move them to one end of the room and fire along it’s 5m length, so a quick pair of longer speaker cables later I have them at the window end and I leave open the French doors at the other end and hit play…………………….

No improvement whatsoever, not a bit, the exact same notes are giving me the same overly blown emphasis… Now I’m confused, so I decide that it must be the amplification, so I reconfigure my kit in every way I can…

I went for pure Meridian, the CD transport and DAC into a Meridian Pre-amp and Meridian monos, and I had the same problem…. So I remove the Meridian from the chain completely and wire the 805’s directly to the Denon AVR and then play the CD via the CA 751, and yet I have the exact same problem..

And that is where I am at the moment, confused as to what it causing it, I’m still erring toward room acoustics but did think that moving the speakers to the end of the room would change characteristics somewhat and when they didn’t it left me bewildered.

So my question which in reality is very difficult for you to answer is, do you think that what I am describing is the result of standing waves? I have now tried various equipment configurations and even swapped out the speakers for different ones so I can’t think of any other reason for it.

What I don’t understand is how I never noticed it before, was it always there with my 805’s but I was so lost in the overall goodness that I didn’t notice it, and it’s only since I’ve picked up on it that I’m now tuned to it? And the more I’m tuned to it the more I notice it???

Who knows but I know one thing I’m currently pee’d off and really need to fix this somehow

Any suggestions please?

Has anyone else suffered what I’ve so poorly described, and if so, what was it and how on earth did you fix it?

Thanks for reading, if you have stayed with me for this long then you deserve a medal, or at least a cup of tea

Thank you in advance for any input that may help me.

Regards
Dave

[b.d]

Hi Dave.

Does sounds like a room node but it is surprising that the exact same node seemed to still be there when you the changed orientation of the system. Possible though. Moving the speakers or the couch a foot in the same orientation should change the node frequency though. If you or speakers are really close to the wall you'll find it hard to avoid some sort of boominess though...600mm is fairly close for couch, what about speakers you didnt say?

Have you tries blocking the ports of your speakers, might help.

If you've got an iphone download the RTA or JL Audio app and some free pink noise and look for obvious nodes, though the 1/3 octave resolution might miss them. Better yet, I found by googling (though cant remember where) some 300-20hz test tones where you can listen hz by hz till you hear the frequency you are noticing in the music, and it should be noticeably louder than the others too, then try moving speakers or couch a bit with that frequency playing and see what happens.

[GregWormald]

It certainly has some of the characteristics of a standing wave problem.

With the room at 5 x 4, how tall is the ceiling?

Try b.d's tests.

Try getting things asymetrical.

Try sitting on a chair in front of the couch.

Try standing up.

Let us know how you go and what you find.

Greg
ps--room nodes are a pain once you start to notice them!

[Grimmie]

Hi Dave,
Now that you and I have relaxed the strangle holds on each others throats (long story folks) I can maybe offer some ........well not advice but some experience

I never have had the 'one note bass' that you seem to be suffering, but I do know first-hand the benefits of finding the sweet spot of a room having finally located the position that allows the drive and life of my system to be best accessed from my listening position. My room is a very wierd shape 3.7 x 5.2Mtrs, open one side and with cut-off corners - almost gave up on it, so It was pure trial and error and also good luck in the end, and let's face it I may not have the best pozzie yet, but I can't overtake any more of my room than I have, even though it is 'mine - all mine' to use.

I spent ages moving them (no mean feat) 50 mil this way and 30 mil that, with no great improvement, then finally decided to go for a slightly more near-field experience bringing them another 250mm toward me, and bingo! quite the revelation. A big improvement in just about every department, a more balanced full and dynamic sound. (With no O.N.B.) Love it.

The speaker centre front baffles are now 1.8M form the wall behind them, 0.8 from the sides and 2.0M apart, roughly, with the listening position - my head - 2.5M away.

OK, this may not help you in your predicament much, except to say that speaker positioning is crucial to good sound and it's worth the effort to get as much from the room as you can.

There is another option mind you, especially if you are quite stuck with the speakers where they are. That is digital room correction. From our brief correspondence you are new to it, but it is well-known on here and used to great effect by quite a few SNA'ers who may chip-in. I am very much considering it myself as an alternative to the more glamorous new DAC purchase as I know I still have plenty of potential in both room-taming and system optimising which the DEQX as it is known MAY release.

Pat O'Brian of WAR Audio in Osborne Park is the Aust. distributor of DEQX and several times I have been a whisker away from doing the dosh with him, I reckon a good buy at 2K for the RCA version and 600 more for balanced. Trouble is, with that option I can't have my flashy DAC as well. (and I'm such a show-pony)

Any time you would like a listen to my wee system you can and welcome, though I won't be moving the speakers back to pos. 1 to show you the difference, my SGR MT3F's don't agree to being pushed around too easily.

[Davey Willo]

Alright fella's

Thanks for the feedback.

b.d. When I sit down for a session I pull the speakers out so the back of them are probably in the region of 600mm from the wall, and a metre or more away from the end walls. As I mentioned thanks to having to fire them across the short side of the rectangle I don't have a lot of wiggle room between the two walls, I think what i have is about as much as I can get without being far too close to them.

I've been reading about Room Modes and I am leaning toward this being my problem, especially as one of the problems described is "a level boost at some frequencies" which is fundamentally what is happening for me, however it looks like a black art to try and fix these things, would it be worth my time to get some sort of acoustic engineer in to help identify the problem and tell me how to fix it? If it is fixable that is I'm going to look for those test tones that you speak off and also try to block the ports but if it is a fundamental problem with the room then I don't expect this to fix anything, correct or no?

Greg: The height is 2.7m so the room is 5m x 4m x 2.7m

Grimmie was that an invite I read there, I can't believe you own a pair of SGR MT3F's.. I would pay good money to come have a listen to something like those.... well maybe a few beers...

Thank you for the help so far lads.

Unfortunately room problems could be worst case scenario, other equipment can be swapped or fixed, but the room, damn I'm so limited to what I can do there..

Cheers
Dave

[b.d]

Yeah can be fixed for the most part. Bass traps help but they gotta be big. Easier and probably more effective is DSP/parrametric EQ. For a pretty much uncompromising fix something like DEQX as has been suggested, or if you had a HTPC then a much cheaper solution would be something software based like Fabfilter. Other solutions like DEQ2496 feeding a decent downstream dac would probably have you come out ahead too.

Are you anywhere near Freo? I could maybe come over and do a few sweeps for you.

Cheers
Bevan

[Davey Willo]

Unfortunately no Bevan, i'm up north near Joondalup, Indian country really, three day's trek on a good horse....

However, if you're ever in the area, I can supply cold beer and petrol money, or hay for the horse

I really don't fancy going the EQ route as I'll always be doubting what I'm listening too and questioning if the EQing is effecting the 'purity' of what I'm hearing if you know what I mean, I'd much prefer looking at room treatments, I bought a pack of the 50mm thick roxul rockwool type stuff, can't remember the type now but it is the weight and thickness that was suggested on various sites for making DIY acoustic panels I just haven't gotten around to making them yet. how effective they may be in taming my issue is debatable of course, and then of course bass traps but I just know that these are going to have a negative WAF factor.....

[Paul Spencer]

Dave,

Your problem is almost certainly standing waves. Have you tried asking them to sit down? The problem is that they get into the room and they keep walking all over your room, if you can get them to sit down then your problem is solved. Ok ok I know, bad joke, but picture this for a moment. Said standing wave is walking in between two walls, back and forth. Now let's suppose that he's walking between your 4m apart pair of walls. In 0.15 seconds he has walked past you how many times? About 13 times. Each time he starts kneeling down just slightly, losing some energy when he bangs his head on the wall. Now your walls are pretty hard so he still bounces off them with some energy left, so even after 13 laps he is still moving with some energy, he hasn't knelt down that much. In audio terms he might have "sat down" by only about 5 db. Now if we pad the walls for him, by this time he is half sitting down, and by another 13 laps, in a third of a second he has pretty much sat down and he isn't distracting us any more. Moral of the story? Pad your walls so the weird guy walking around your room sits down. Keep in mind there are thousands of these guys walking in all directions all at the same time.

So this effect is called "modal ringing." Those standing waves cause the bass to remain in the room, rather than decay in a more natural way. If you measure a speaker outdoors, or put a mic up really close to the cone so it doesn't "hear" the room, then what you find is that the bass decays very quickly from the speaker itself, but this decay slows right down when the room comes into the picture. The best solution is to intercept the bass in the places where most of it gathers (in corners) with a bass trap.

Why haven't you heard it until now? There can be two answers, both probably true. The first is that before you might not have had the existing problems illuminated so much. More bass tends to highlight this problem. Subwoofers are the extreme example. The other is that one develops heightened sensitivity to certain things in extended listening. First comes the threshold, where you first notice something. Your brain gets a lock on it, it now recognises this particular thing, then as you listen further it focuses resources on hearing it and pretty soon you hear it all the time. The dripping tap becomes ear piercing.

Band aid solutions include plugging ports, choosing speakers with less bass and various methods intended to hide the problems by not putting much bass into the room to start with. I always find those solutions very unsatisfying, the music can be so dramatically diminished when you are used to hearing bass that is deep, powerful, full bodied yet tight and controlled.

EQ is a poor solution. You can use it to tame some of the worst peaks so that the ringing I've described here isn't as obvious, but the underlying problem remains.

Placement can shift the problem around a little bit, but again it will still persist.

One experiment is to place your speakers outside, perhaps with a wall behind. You are now hearing bass without any room build-up with the wall and floor providing some boost. It's quite a different sound. Now if you can get your room setup right, with enough bass traps, the impression in the bass does have a similarity to that tight punchy outdoors bass, except you still retain room gain so you actually get more depth.

I've written a 3 part guide to bass integration:
http://redspade-audi...tion-guide.html

Part 2 is about treatment (and part 3 will be coming out soon).

BTW, based on your room dimensions of 4 x 5m, it's not surprising that you describe a problem. You have primary modes at ~35 & 44 Hz. It's quite likely that you have some big bass peaks at those two points. 15 dB is not uncommon. The primary mode is calculated by 172 / distance between boundaries, and it is often the most dominant peak. The mode at 44 Hz would make low bass guitar notes stand out and sound bloated.

[Davey Willo]

Heheh excellent post Paul

Being a simple man I need things explaining in a simple way and your post although off the wall (no pun intended) was quite informative, however I then went and read the first part of your 3 part article and felt my head starting to hurt, so stopped...

So.... who in Perth has some Bass Traps that Daveyboy can try out and is willing to part with them for a couple of days

[Paul Spencer]

When your wife isn't looking, stand up some mattresses in the corners on the diagonal. I started with an experiment like that not expecting to find much improvement and the result shocked me. I haven't been able to go back since ... also be warned - those little 1ft foam wedges don't do a thing. If you try them you will be scratching your head wondering what I was talking about.

[Grimmie]

Grimmie was that an invite I read there, I can't believe you own a pair of SGR MT3F's.. I would pay good money to come have a listen to something like those.... well maybe a few beers... Thank you for the help so far lads. Unfortunately room problems could be worst case scenario, other equipment can be swapped or fixed, but the room, damn I'm so limited to what I can do there.. Cheers Dave

Well as I am just down the road from you in Kingsley it would definitely be an invite. We'll have to tee it up, - soon. And yes I do have some absorbtion panels that I made a couple of years ago, it may be worth bringing them around to see if they are effective in that traitorous room. Any time you like after work or weekends.

[GregWormald]

With nodes at 4, 5, and 5.4 (2.7 x 2) metres, there is a lot of energy reverberating in a fairly small frequency range.

You will need to damp that. Try Paul's method of mattresses to see what difference that makes, and then work from there.

Large pieces of furniture, bookshelves, etc. may help a bit, especially if you can break up the standing waves and absorb some of the bass, although the room dimensions are not the best for good reproduction.

Greg

[Davey Willo]

the result shocked me. I haven't been able to go back since

Doesn't you wife miss the mattress?

Seriously though, I've thought of doing exactly that but bottled it as the mattresses are huge 'heavy duty' beasts and I just couldn't be arsed dragging them through the house but now that you've said that you were shocked I will most certainly go to the effort, nice one Paul.

Grimmmie: That would be awesome mate, both the GTG and the loan of the panels.

Thanks everyone for the input, once more I'm left 'very impressed indeed' with this community

Cheers
Dave

[b.d]

Dont think I'd call Eq a poor solution. 'Necessary but not sufficient' rather. I'd say the same of bass traps too.

Bass traps would be sufficient if you had enough of them, but in my small apartment a 2400x1500x250mm pack of Bradfords Supertel was not nearly enough, and my wife understandably wasnt keen on my taking up more real estate than that. They certainly made an improvement, but probably more so as broadband absorbers than bass traps as such. They made little measurable difference to the main node which still required -10db Eq. Eq makes a huge difference in my room and its the last 'component' of my system that I'd ever chose to give up.

Davey, I'll come up there if you need some more accurate measurement, but if you're not willing to go the Eq route then you wont really need them, in fact they are only likely to make you depressed. If you're going the bass trap route just put in as many as you and your partner will tolerate, you cant overdo it (if you go deep rather than wide, or hang something reflective over them that is, i.e too much surface area and you will kill too much high frequency energy)

If I can put help change your mind on Eq though just think of all the Eq that the signal has already likely gone through in the studio. More of it wont necessarily add any cumulative damage if done purely digital, not like additional DAC->ADC stages would. Also consider that without addressing room modes properly the room is going to impose gross equalization on the signal (or should we call it unequalization?). Purity and simplicity have a certain aesthetic appeal of course, but the they are just ideas and our ears dont seem to care much for idea

You're welcome to borrow my absorbers for a few day too if you want, though you'd need a minivan to move them.

Cheers
B

[Paul Spencer]

Dont think I'd call Eq a poor solution. 'Necessary but not sufficient' rather. I'd say the same of bass traps too.

Let me qualify that ...

EQ is a poor solution to the problem of modal ringing. You can't fix a time domain acoustic issue with a frequency response solution. In the same way, bass traps are a poor solution where getting a flat response is the goal. EQ is the tool there.

In reality both are needed, but I noticed that people tended to go for one or the other, seeing their tool of choice as superior. The two are complementary, achieving different things that are both needed. Because I couldn't find anything showing how to use them together, I started writing my bass integration guide. The strategy isn't new, but I wanted to bring it all together into one process.

[Drizt]

I agree with b.d. Sometimes bass traps by themselves are not going to be enough and that is when EQ is much more than a poor choice, its the right choice

[b.d]

In reality both are needed, but I noticed that people tended to go for one or the other, seeing their tool of choice as superior. The two are complementary, achieving different things that are both needed.

That sounds about right.

[kajak12]

Dave,

Your problem is almost certainly standing waves. Have you tried asking them to sit down? The problem is that they get into the room and they keep walking all over your room, if you can get them to sit down then your problem is solved. Ok ok I know, bad joke, but picture this for a moment. Said standing wave is walking in between two walls, back and forth. Now let's suppose that he's walking between your 4m apart pair of walls. In 0.15 seconds he has walked past you how many times? About 13 times. Each time he starts kneeling down just slightly, losing some energy when he bangs his head on the wall. Now your walls are pretty hard so he still bounces off them with some energy left, so even after 13 laps he is still moving with some energy, he hasn't knelt down that much. In audio terms he might have "sat down" by only about 5 db. Now if we pad the walls for him, by this time he is half sitting down, and by another 13 laps, in a third of a second he has pretty much sat down and he isn't distracting us any more. Moral of the story? Pad your walls so the weird guy walking around your room sits down. Keep in mind there are thousands of these guys walking in all directions all at the same time.

So this effect is called "modal ringing." Those standing waves cause the bass to remain in the room, rather than decay in a more natural way. If you measure a speaker outdoors, or put a mic up really close to the cone so it doesn't "hear" the room, then what you find is that the bass decays very quickly from the speaker itself, but this decay slows right down when the room comes into the picture. The best solution is to intercept the bass in the places where most of it gathers (in corners) with a bass trap.

Why haven't you heard it until now? There can be two answers, both probably true. The first is that before you might not have had the existing problems illuminated so much. More bass tends to highlight this problem. Subwoofers are the extreme example. The other is that one develops heightened sensitivity to certain things in extended listening. First comes the threshold, where you first notice something. Your brain gets a lock on it, it now recognises this particular thing, then as you listen further it focuses resources on hearing it and pretty soon you hear it all the time. The dripping tap becomes ear piercing.

Band aid solutions include plugging ports, choosing speakers with less bass and various methods intended to hide the problems by not putting much bass into the room to start with. I always find those solutions very unsatisfying, the music can be so dramatically diminished when you are used to hearing bass that is deep, powerful, full bodied yet tight and controlled.

EQ is a poor solution. You can use it to tame some of the worst peaks so that the ringing I've described here isn't as obvious, but the underlying problem remains.

Placement can shift the problem around a little bit, but again it will still persist.

One experiment is to place your speakers outside, perhaps with a wall behind. You are now hearing bass without any room build-up with the wall and floor providing some boost. It's quite a different sound. Now if you can get your room setup right, with enough bass traps, the impression in the bass does have a similarity to that tight punchy outdoors bass, except you still retain room gain so you actually get more depth.

I've written a 3 part guide to bass integration:
http://redspade-audi...tion-guide.html

Part 2 is about treatment (and part 3 will be coming out soon).

BTW, based on your room dimensions of 4 x 5m, it's not surprising that you describe a problem. You have primary modes at ~35 & 44 Hz. It's quite likely that you have some big bass peaks at those two points. 15 dB is not uncommon. The primary mode is calculated by 172 / distance between boundaries, and it is often the most dominant peak. The mode at 44 Hz would make low bass guitar notes stand out and sound bloated.

i was waiting for your post paul i will take the challenge to fix his system to his satisfaction (without some mattresses in the corners on the diagonal)

[b.d]

Duelunds, of course!

[Drizt]

i was waiting for your post paul i will take the challenge to fix his system to his satisfaction (without some mattresses in the corners on the diagonal)

How would you fix it kajak?

[kajak12]

Duelunds, of course!

wrong answer

[kajak12]

How would you fix it kajak?

magic and a lot of subjective listening

Edited by kajak12, 11 April 2012 - 09:00 PM.

[Drizt]

magic

Figured

I for one would like to read your thoughts on this (the serious ones ) topic.

[kajak12]

Figured

I for one would like to read your thoughts on this (the serious ones ) topic.

i will not post how i fix this problem it will be a secret magicians don't reveal secrets

[guru]

Joachim Gerhard of audio physics used to recommend his speakers to be setup along the long wall of the room as long as you were prepared to do 2 things , firstly have your head no more than 30 cm from the back wall and have the speakers wide apart and toed in so the cross point was about 30 cm in front of your nose. I used to get great imaging and very good clean bass from every setup of the speakers using this method. Definitely improved front to back imaging as well.
Cheers.

Edited by guru, 11 April 2012 - 09:15 PM.

[colinm1]

simply hi fi used to make a q filter for just those problems.i think it was set about 65 hz,

[kajak12]

Joachim Gerhard of audio physics used to recommend his speakers to be setup along the long wall of the room as long as you were prepared to do 2 things , firstly have your head no more than 30 cm from the back wall and have the speakers wide apart and toed in so the cross point was about 30 cm in front of your nose. I used to get great imaging and very good clean bass from every setup of the speakers using this method. Definitely improved front to back imaging as well.
Cheers.

headphones?

[Paul Spencer]

i was waiting for your post paul i will take the challenge to fix his system to his satisfaction (without some mattresses in the corners on the diagonal)

Kudos to you for offering to help. The real question here is "what do you think the problem is?" It's difficult to fix a problem you don't understand. If you don't understand a problem you are dealing with, then how do you fix it?

If you can fix a system with serious modal ringing without acoustic treatment to my satisfaction, then I'll be impressed. You have almost no chance because unless you use treatment and deal with the acoustic issues, you will see-saw from weak to boomy bass, settling on a middle ground option that I would likely call mediocre, if you asked for a frank opinion. This is assuming a bad room.

And if you actually do understand the problem you are dealing with, and have a solution, why would you not share it? If you have something to contribute, others who may not get to see "the magician at work" can learn something. It also opens up your solution to scrutiny and input from others, from which you might learn something as well.

[Dr Good Vibe]

Pau; I wounder if it involves changing cap values and rolling of frequencys off early so you don't have to worry about bass.

[kajak12]

Kudos to you for offering to help. The real question here is "what do you think the problem is?" It's difficult to fix a problem you don't understand. If you don't understand a problem you are dealing with, then how do you fix it? If you can fix a system with serious modal ringing without acoustic treatment to my satisfaction, then I'll be impressed. You have almost no chance because unless you use treatment and deal with the acoustic issues, you will see-saw from weak to boomy bass, settling on a middle ground option that I would likely call mediocre, if you asked for a frank opinion. This is assuming a bad room. And if you actually do understand the problem you are dealing with, and have a solution, why would you not share it? If you have something to contribute, others who may not get to see "the magician at work" can learn something. It also opens up your solution to scrutiny and input from others, from which you might learn something as well.

The problem is described by the op paul the solution is magic as for modal ringing to your satisfaction i am not here to satisfy you...........
I dealt with worse rooms then his paul in a magical way,as for sharing done that lots of times on this forum...........
ps:you would like to learn something you need a better amp then class d to impress some people instead of measurements........

[Drizt]

right.....

[Paul Spencer]

The problem is described by the op paul the solution is magic as for modal ringing to your satisfaction i am not here to satisfy you...........

The point is that you need something more than "magic" to impress someone who is accustomed to bass done right.

ps:you would like to learn something you need a better amp then class d to impress some people instead of measurements........

What does class D have to do with the topic? BTW I'm yet to use class D in my system.

[Dr Good Vibe]

The problem is described by the op paul the solution is magic as for modal ringing to your satisfaction i am not here to satisfy you...........
I dealt with worse rooms then his paul in a magical way,as for sharing done that lots of times on this forum...........
ps:you would like to learn something you need a better amp then class d to impress some people instead of measurements........

Sorry ka-12, I don't understand "magic" in this instant. could you explain a bit more please. When my son was small I made magic for him on a daily basis to help him plan and wounder, now at UNI he designs games. What’s your magic? Please.

[kajak12]

Sorry ka-12, I don't understand "magic" in this instant. could you explain a bit more please. When my son was small I made magic for him on a daily basis to help him plan and wounder, now at UNI he designs games. What’s your magic? Please.

magicians code of silence is not to be broken find your own magic i have nothing that will expand your horizons

[Dr Good Vibe]

magicians code of silence is not to be broken find your own magic i have nothing that will expand your horizons

I hope this is a joke with a twisted sense of humour that I can laugh along with. If not I would ask Prof and his partner to make a time with him too help.
If not how does one get your magic help? now be nice. ka-12.

Edited by Dr Good Vibe, 13 April 2012 - 08:09 AM.

[Dr Good Vibe]

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
I

[Dr Good Vibe]

magicians code of silence is not to be broken find your own magic i have nothing that will expand your horizons

Ha was that the same magic that let the blue magic smoke out of the Deuland caps.?

Edited by Dr Good Vibe, 13 April 2012 - 11:50 AM.

[myrantz]

So is the OP willing? Call it what it will, as long as it works. OP, give kajak a shot, he's a straight talker, thats all. if you don't like what he did, then let the others gloat later, not before...

At the end of the way, whatever works best for you. good luck.

[Drizt]

lol, so much cloak and dagger.

Why would the OP let kajak into his home when he hasn't actually offered anything other than magic? Why is kajak afraid to reveal what his intentions are?

The OP would be more inclined to trust kajak if he explained what he intends on doing / suggesting to fix the issues?

As Paul asked before, if kajak doesn't understand what the actual problem is he has no chance of fixing it (well, very very little chance of magic'ing a fix)

[myrantz]

what ever works for the op. Op needs help. several have offered. i hope that will not be sidetracked by ridiculous banter.

[Davey Willo]

C'mon fella's, the OP.. erm thats me, Dave, isn't wanting to see this **** going on..

I'm just please with anyone thats willing to help, I'm taking my speakers to Mario's tomorrow, more for a gloat over his system more than anything else but it will also help to take my speakers out of the equation if they sing in his room connected to his amps/DAC, infact I can't wait to hear my 805's connected to something so highly regarded as his system seems to be from everythig I see on various forums from here to KillerDAC.com

Personally after doing some research over the last day or so I'm more and more convinced that my room is the problem, especially as another pair of heavier bass floor standers just exaserbated the problem, and my lesser bass-y AE1's never highlighted the problem..... but I'm willing to let Mario sprinkle his fairy dust first. Altough I fear i'll be moving into the world of traps, diffusers and/or EQ to tame these odd frequencies which are blighting my enjoyment.

Thanks everyone for the input, except for the bitof bickering it's been a very informative thread.

Cheers
Dave

[myrantz]

C'mon fella's, the OP.. erm thats me, Dave, isn't wanting to see this **** going on..

apologies dave. was saving keystrokes as I'm using two fingers to type atm . All the best with your setup.

[Davey Willo]

Heheh no worries mate, and thanks for the best wishes

[Dr Good Vibe]

give kajak a shot, he's a straight talker

Yes but he's said nothing yet, and all I've asked for respectfully was an answer?. "Magic" , "magicians code", "find your own magic i have nothing that will expand your horizons". All looks intelligent and helpful to me.

[Paul Spencer]

Dave, I suspect that Mario's magic involves some kind of way to avoid your room problems by reducing the bass in some way. You can tame problems that way and you may well be happy enough with the result. But if your problem is what I think it is, then if you fix it acoustically with bass traps, then you will be able to get good bass without avoiding problems with less bass. Add traps and get the bass right, and you can then have more bass and have it sound balanced, tight and full. It's far more satisfying, but it's also quite a bit less partner friendly!

By all means, you might as well see where Mario's help gets you, after all you only stand to gain and if you don't like the result, you can always try something else. Or if you find he gives you something useful, you can always use it in addition to traps. Audio is a giant smorgasbord, not a competition.