30 replies to this topic

[Davey Willo]

G'day fellas

I'm currently walking the floor like an expectant father waiting on the arrival of my M5,1 which will be fed by my SBT via coax.

So while I wait I thought it prudent to order a good cable in preparation of it's delivery, so to that end I wondered if I could get some advice and pointers on a good cable.

Links to suggested cables would be excellent if possible, if not just manufacturers and cable names would be very cool

A local retailer was showing me some Audioquest VDM series, the VDM-3 seems like a good cable without paying crazy prices whereas the VDM-5 seemed very expensive for what it is, but who knows. I want the best sound that I can achieve but also don't want to pay ridiculous prices for a cable if the benefits of greater expense are not realised, I'm sure you know what I mean...

Also has anyone tried one of these? http://www.lenehanau...terconnect.html

Anyway, all thoughts and suggestions gratefully received.

Cheers everyone
Dave.

Edited by Davey Willo, 08 April 2012 - 12:02 PM.

[Gruffnutz]

If it's not made with Canare's RCAP series RCA plugs; it's not a 'good 75 Ohm digital coax lead' IMHO. Pretty much anything made with RCAPs and a decent 75 Ohm cable is a 'good 75 Ohm digital coax lead'.

I've made my own with the Canare plugs (RCAP-C5F) and RG6 cable (L-5CFB) and they work great. Total cost was lower than even the cheaper Audioquest. From a technical perspective I have trouble believing there could be a superior 75 Ohm lead without abandoning RCAs altogether.

[rocky500]

here is an ebay seller with canare. Don't know if there anygood myself.
http://www.ebay.com....=item4ab5e41ebe
http://www.ebay.com....=item4ab5e41db0

[Proac]

Black Cat Veloce or Graves Digital IC. Both excellent. I have a spare BC Veloce lying around if you want it.

[kajak12]

G'day fellas

I'm currently walking the floor like an expectant father waiting on the arrival of my M5,1 which will be fed by my SBT via coax.

So while I wait I thought it prudent to order a good cable in preparation of it's delivery, so to that end I wondered if I could get some advice and pointers on a good cable.

Links to suggested cables would be excellent if possible, if not just manufacturers and cable names would be very cool

A local retailer was showing me some Audioquest VDM series, the VDM-3 seems like a good cable without paying crazy prices whereas the VDM-5 seemed very expensive for what it is, but who knows. I want the best sound that I can achieve but also don't want to pay ridiculous prices for a cable if the benefits of greater expense are not realised, I'm sure you know what I mean...

Also has anyone tried one of these? http://www.lenehanau...terconnect.html

Anyway, all thoughts and suggestions gratefully received.

Cheers everyone
Dave.

Great digital cable recommended as always system dependent

[hochopeper]

Great digital cable recommended as always system dependent

How so?

[chu]

here is an ebay seller with canare. Don't know if there anygood myself. http://www.ebay.com....=item4ab5e41ebe http://www.ebay.com....=item4ab5e41db0

I have a 75 ohm Canare cable similar to these. IME a DIY cable using D Smith's antenna cable (W2082 air dielectric coaxial) and some good RCAs (I use a Taiwanese brand) is much better with less noise or jitter. To be fair, the DIY cable is twice as long which may help in this aspect.

Edited by chu, 09 April 2012 - 06:17 PM.

[kajak12]

How so?

Synergy...............with a given system

[hochopeper]

Synergy is not a specification of impedance matching that I am familiar with.

The cable needn't have a megabuck pricetag either. I haven't used coaxial spdif in a number of years so can't recommend anything specific but I wouldn't be too precious about it as long as the cable is well made and connectors and cable are designed for the application.

[Mick35]

Eichmann eXpress Digital 75 Ohm Cable, nicely made cable at a reasonable price/meter. Sounds good so far in my system.

[bruce108]

Audio-GD do a Canare with Canare plugs for a small cost and fine results.

[John H. Darko]

Maybe start with something cheap and cheerful from BJC: http://www.bluejeans...audio/index.htm ?

If that doesn't float your boat, as Proac said above, perhaps something from Black Cat: http://blackcat75.ning.com/ (Their website is a bit confusing, I know).

When I tried the Audio-gd cable I thought it to be fairly ordinary. I did like the Lenehan one though.

[kajak12]

Synergy is not a specification of impedance matching that I am familiar with.

The cable needn't have a megabuck pricetag either. I haven't used coaxial spdif in a number of years so can't recommend anything specific but I wouldn't be too precious about it as long as the cable is well made and connectors and cable are designed for the application.

Synergy is more important then impedance matching with digital cables as two digital cables both 75ohm sound different............due to type of conductors and shielding used........and terminations.

[essem]

No fuss very affordable ($25us) canare/gepco true 75 ohm digital audio coax from here:
http://store.haveinc...ital-audio.aspx
as per suggestion in a discussion elsewhere:
http://forum.audiogo...cabl
I got a couple of the 3 footers. I had to email them to get a sensible shipping quote; they were good to deal with. Very happy with the cables, well made, sound good. Like the OP I bought the coax for a SBT (w/soundcheck's v3 software) to be a transport into my new DAC. Got quite a shock when for curiosity I hooked up the digital coax to my CDP instead, a very modest Nad C542, and it spanked the SBT's bottie as a transport for its smoothness, clarity and musicality - it was like a thin veil of grit/dirt was removed. That kind of put my digitisation plans on the back burner! I now use the SBT for inet radio (loving Radio Paradise) and "background" music listening now, with serious music listening via the CDP into to my Yulong Sabre D18 DAC. So to the OP, YMMV of course, but if you have a semi decent CDP lying around, do give it a try with your new lovely new M51. Enjoy.
Hope this helps, ess.

[empirical]

There are two that stand-out with my customers:

1) Ridge Street Poiema
2) HiDiamond Digital Carbon

I highly recommend a 1.5m length.

Steve N.

[kajak12]

There are two that stand-out with my customers:

1) Ridge Street Poiema
2) HiDiamond Digital Carbon

I highly recommend a 1.5m length.

Steve N.

+2 on the 1.5m length digital cable......................

[onthebeach]

I used to be in the camp where I was unsure if cables made a difference. I had not before either in my system or friends systems been able to identify quantifiable differences to SQ by using different cables.

That all changed last week. I bought a used Offramp4 here on sna and originally used a cheap generic digital 75 ohm rca ended cable to connect it to my also newly acquired dac. The sound was dark, congested and not very pleasant at all. I actually listened to it like that for an hour or two and felt a bit disappointed. I had been expecting more.

I had a quality 'Phantom' digital cable lent from a friend that was only .5m long hence me not using it originally with the offramp. I moved the Offramp closer to the dac and connected the Phantom. Well. I had never really experienced anything like it. In one moment any thought I had built up over the years about all cables being the same just got washed away. The music now was rich, lush and just beautiful. The difference was so dramatic it was just unbelievable. I spent the rest of that day just gobsmacked at the improvement. If I hadn't heard it myself I don't think I would have believed it. It was like I had a blocked drain and the Phantom just totally cleared it.

Possibly the original cheap cable was defective. I haven't had a chance to try other cables yet to really see. I'll need to follow this up. The Phantom needs to be returned soon so I'm in the process of organising some other quality digital cables to check out to give me something permanant.

It also made me wonder how many others people are missing out on what their various components can actually offer .

[Vitruvian]

I did an A/B switching of the Lenehan cables and some others (I cannot remember the other brands - sorry); I could tell a difference immeadiately (I was the cable changer so it was not a blind test). My gf was able to tell to tell the difference between the Lenehan and other cables in a blind test.

Neither of us was inclined to believe that digital cables could even make a discernable difference before that test. I ended up ordering two and I am very happy with them.

[CP_]

I've got some loaners if anyone's interested to try something different.

[Davey Willo]

Hey thanks for all of the suggestions, what a great little community we have going here.... well most of the time eh

I've even had kajak pm me to offer to loan me a lenehan cable to try, very cool, thanks mate.

I'm impressed to hear that high cost is not necessarily a factor in getting a good cable, infact I'm thinking of ordering a couple from the link that essem put up, the HAVE/CANARE appear to have some great feedback, enough to blow a few dollars on trying them out.

I'm assuming that in the long run I'll want more than one anyway will I? If this DAC is really as good as you guys say then I'm thinking that I may want feed my Meridian CDP into it, although that may be going for sale as I hardly ever use it these days, but then what about my CA 751 BD player, would i plug that into it?

Another question, Why are 1.5m lengths so important?

Cheers everyone
Dave

Edited by Davey Willo, 09 April 2012 - 02:27 PM.

[pchan]

Cable lengths of 1m> is for convienience, the shorter the better but not good if it's too short!

[kajak12]

The 1.5m is recommended due to cables reflections with in the cable,,,,,,,,
http://www.positive-...sue14/spdif.htm

[CP_]

Agree with Kajak, I go with 1.2m min.

[petng]

Highly recommend wywire digital cable.

Have got a stereovox xv2 lying around.

[empirical]

Another question, Why are 1.5m lengths so important?

Cheers everyone
Dave

There are technical reasons to avoid adding jitter. Read my white paper:

http://www.positive-...sue14/spdif.htm

Steve N.
Empirical Audio

[pchan]

There are technical reasons to avoid adding jitter. Read my white paper:

http://www.positive-...sue14/spdif.htm

Steve N.
Empirical Audio

Im not doubting you Steve, the info you have provided for the link is technically sound. To fully impedance matched, length of cable comes into play.. Lets say s/pdif cables are ideally set to lenghts for impedance matching by a manufacturer. The rest of the system you are placing this cable in are unknown matched that may not and never be matched, This still throws the matching out of the water even if 1.5m is idealy usedl. I have set up circuits for impedance matching in my college days and things do not always measured to calculated theory. The alternative to reduce reflections in a cable is to throw a circuit that will attenuate the reflection enough so that the receiving end does not see or respond to it. Not many audiophiles or consumers are not going to set it up and cut to length a cable for impedance matching! The cheapest blind alternative is to use ferrite supressors that I can only think of to make this work. This is why the most expensive cable may never sound the best! The other alternative is the use of a Toshlink cable and this will eliminate the inherent short falls of coax. To get a good result out of coax is to buy more than one(2-4) at the cut lengh and try them with the option to fit ferrite suppressors, if you are so idealistic!

[empirical]

Im not doubting you Steve, the info you have provided for the link is technically sound. To fully impedance matched, length of cable comes into play.. Lets say s/pdif cables are ideally set to lenghts for impedance matching by a manufacturer. The rest of the system you are placing this cable in are unknown matched that may not and never be matched, This still throws the matching out of the water even if 1.5m is idealy usedl. I have set up circuits for impedance matching in my college days and things do not always measured to calculated theory. The alternative to reduce reflections in a cable is to throw a circuit that will attenuate the reflection enough so that the receiving end does not see or respond to it. Not many audiophiles or consumers are not going to set it up and cut to length a cable for impedance matching! The cheapest blind alternative is to use ferrite supressors that I can only think of to make this work. This is why the most expensive cable may never sound the best! The other alternative is the use of a Toshlink cable and this will eliminate the inherent short falls of coax. To get a good result out of coax is to buy more than one(2-4) at the cut lengh and try them with the option to fit ferrite suppressors, if you are so idealistic!

Actually, once you exceed the length that starts to exhibit transmission-line effects, the length is usually not revelant to impedance. This depends on the edge-rates or slew-rates. And the object in this case is not attenuation of the reflection, but instead to avoid it by timing the arrival just right. This is why the length must be very short, less than 8 inches so that the first reflection occurs before the edge is detected, or long enough so that the first reflection occurs after the edge is detected. The second reflection is usually attenuated enough so you dont have to worry about it. Ferrites should NEVER be used in digital transmission-lines IMO. They impose a low-pass filter which slows the edge-rates. This will definitely add to jitter as the receiver has more uncertainty to the timing of the edge detection. Adds inductance to the line, which mucks-up the impedance as well. Analog is actually one of the best places to use ferrites, but only certain types and very sparingly. Even audio frequencies can be compromised by them. Steve N.

Edited by empirical, 11 April 2012 - 03:49 AM.

[pchan]

Steve,

thnxs for bringing the point on ferrites as have been possible miss informed. Incidently doesnt S/pdif uses frequency shift key modulation as a carrier for the digital signal? If so how is cable electrical characteristics come into effect slew rate as I do not understand how FSK is effected as it changes frequency for the different bits.
Also how did it arrived to a length of 1.5M and less than 8inches?? is this where the point of calculation to show minimum reflection

[aechmea]

Plenty of good info about SPDIF/coax. Does the same apply to AES/EBU/XLR?

Edit: yes I know AES/EBU/XLR should be 110Ohm - but what about the length versus reflections?

Edited by aechmea, 11 April 2012 - 11:50 AM.

[pchan]

Plenty of good info about SPDIF/coax. Does the same apply to AES/EBU/XLR?

Edit: yes I know AES/EBU/XLR should be 110Ohm - but what about the length versus reflections?

check this out, http://www.pcmag.com...&i=37583,00.asp

I would have thought balanced XLR was more immune to interference but I am wrong!!!
XLR was primarily used for long cable runs and it takes over were RCA becomes very affected. how it affects short cable run in digital is slightly out of my knowledge.

Edited by pchan, 11 April 2012 - 12:19 PM.

[jkeny]

I agree with the short SPDIF cable concept so that the first reflection arrives before the edge is detected but the idea of longer cables worries me some. Firstly you have to calculate the electrical length of the cable - This will depend on the velocity of wave propagation (velocity factor) in the cable. To ensure the reflection does not arrive on a edge detect we need todo some calculations - it's not just a matter of saying 1-5M is fine - it depends on a number of considerations:

There is a length below which the cable will not show "transmission line" behaviour.

The TL effects come from the delayed return of energy.

If the delay in the cable is so short that the returned energy is returned much fater than the signal rises, them we may reasonable conclude that no transmission line effects occur.

Let's take a 1m Length of 75 Ohm cable. With a 75R source and 75R load and 50pF our rise time is limited to around 2nS (cannot get any faster than that - RC equivalent circuit dictates).

Now in 1m our signal travels at around 75% of the speed of light so the trip of the signal one way and back takes around 9nS.

So clearly, a 1m Cable is too long and for a 2nS risetime signal we have transmission line effects.

If we shorten the cable and note that much common cmos outputs have a risetime of around 10 - 20nS we can actually get away okay with a cable of around 30cm length as having no significant TL effects. The half cycle period of our 44.1KHz SPDIF signal for a 1 is around 90nS. So a delay of 45nS would put our first reflection well outside the trigger window.

Incidentally, to do that using good quality 75R cable requires around 5m Length, such a cable on the RC equivalent circuit limits rise rime to around 10nS.

BTW, if we use higher sample rate or faster rise times, ideal cablelength reduces proportionately.

Edited by jkeny, 16 April 2012 - 03:19 PM.