71 replies to this topic

[John H. Darko]

Come on Pete. All this waiting is killing me. Have a listen to them for god sake (and mine) ;-)

Easy there now, Brad. These speakers are for modding and modding ONLY.

(yeah, Pete, I can see what you write in other threads! )

[pete_mac]

Ha... listening? Where's the fun in that? Everyone knows that speakers sound just fine underneath several blankets in the garage

I did have a nice long listen on Friday night, and I am very impressed with what I hear. They're not as transparent as the ML1s overall, nor are they as taught and controlled in the lower registers. The ML1 dig deeper. However, I think they're great speakers for the money, particularly after the crossover mods which do noticeably improve the clarity and refinement of the speakers.

I'd love to hear them against some real 1S or 1SCs to see if they are different in terms of tonality due to the use of different crossover components. The genuine ProAcs use fairly run-of-the-mill components - the later 1SCs with the non-removable backs have iron-core inductors and polyester caps throughout. 1SCs do have improved/custom drivers though.

For that matter, I'd love to hear the modded clones back-to-back against some bog-stock clones, as it's hard to draw clear comparisons based upon one's audio memory when listening sessions are weeks apart!

I'll bring the Usher S520s out of the bedroom system at some stage in future for a comparison too, and might take these to Darkoville to see how they stack up vs some ProAc Tablette Ref 8s.

[haraldo]

These speakers are very interesting

Great work on the mods!!!! can't wait to hear more....
I'm just thinking wouldn't this be a great opportunity to match with an electronic x-over like the Behringer ultradrive DCX2496?

Cheers

Harald

[pete_mac]

These speakers are very interesting

Great work on the mods!!!! can't wait to hear more....
I'm just thinking wouldn't this be a great opportunity to match with an electronic x-over like the Behringer ultradrive DCX2496?

Cheers

Harald

Thanks Harald!

I don't think the DCX2496 fits in with my system goals. The device appears to use balanced inputs and outputs, and would also necessitate more than one amplifier. The latter is not a drama (as I have several suitable Sansuis) but the former presents a problem. My Sansuis are the parts of my system that aren't going anywhere in a hurry!

I also wouldn't start dabbling in setting crossover frequencies/slopes without the use of decent speaker measurement tools/software.

[haraldo]

Thanks Harald!

I don't think the DCX2496 fits in with my system goals. The device appears to use balanced inputs and outputs, and would also necessitate more than one amplifier. The latter is not a drama (as I have several suitable Sansuis) but the former presents a problem. My Sansuis are the parts of my system that aren't going anywhere in a hurry!

I also wouldn't start dabbling in setting crossover frequencies/slopes without the use of decent speaker measurement tools/software.

Yes getting a DCX2496 into the house is probably a way of enabling constant tweaking of target curves and leaving you wondering all the time if the curves are ok, it's not really what we want in this hobby

It also adds an AD / DA process into the system, which may not be so good......

Edited by haraldo, 07 May 2012 - 10:02 PM.

[pete_mac]

Yes getting a DCX2496 into the house is probably a way of enabling constant tweaking of target curves and leaving you wondering all the time if the curves are ok, it's not really what we want in this hobby

It also adds an AD / DA process into the system, which may not be so good......

If I could incorporate it with the Sansui amps and also purchase some measuring equipment, I'd certainly give it a go.

I may end up buying some measuring equipment some day anyway - I'm quite interested in developing and refining passive crossovers in my other speakers.

At the very least, one day I will eventually re-do these crossovers as external point-to-point crossovers.

[haraldo]

If I could incorporate it with the Sansui amps and also purchase some measuring equipment, I'd certainly give it a go.

I may end up buying some measuring equipment some day anyway - I'm quite interested in developing and refining passive crossovers in my other speakers.

At the very least, one day I will eventually re-do these crossovers as external point-to-point crossovers.

BEWARE..... Late John Dunlavy spent months, and even more than this.... just on tweaking crossovers in his SC-* speakers, and he had an anechoic chamber and more knowledge about this than anyoen else around here (I believe)

Edited by haraldo, 07 May 2012 - 11:04 PM.

[pete_mac]

Well, I finally sold my beloved ML1s this week, so the clones are now taking pride of place in my main system. No more solitary confinement in the garage for these puppies!

The upside is that they have over 700 hours on them now. I kid you not! Around 700 hours on the drivers, 500 hours on the inductors and some of the crossover caps, and 300 hours on the Clarity Caps in the tweeter network. To say they are run-in is perhaps the understatement of the year.

Sooooo... how to they sound?

Well, the biggest difference vs the ML1s it the bass definition and extension. Without my REL sub there is a clear difference. The ML1s had better definition and extension, that's for sure - no contest! I've had to increase the crossover point on the REL by at least 10hz or so to compensate. The REL integrates just as convincingly with the clones as the ML1s so I'm very happy in that regard.

The ML1s were certainly a more transparent/neutral speaker, but the clones still do an excellent job of communicating detail and nuances in the music. I'm finding them very very enjoyable to listen to for all genres of music. I always found myself focussing on elements of the music with the ML1s due to their transparent nature, rather than enjoying the music as a whole. The clones seem to allow me to relax more, despite the fact that they are still very detailed. Dare I say it... the modded clones are more 'musical'? I dunno...

I really need to drag out my Ushers from the bedroom system and have a listen/comparison, and maybe take them to John Darko's place for a comparison against some genuine ProAc Tablettes to see how these clones stack up. It's all too easy for me to get carried away with these speakers due to the time and effort invested in the tweaks - the mind can work in funny ways. Having said that, even if I'm delusional... it's my system and my speakers, so does it really matter in the end?

Edited by pete_mac, 12 May 2012 - 12:18 AM.

[skippy124]

Looking forward to having a listen to these on Sunday (if we can squeeze it in..........)

[pete_mac]

Oh yes, squeeze we shall! We'll send the women outside for a while if we need some 'quiet time'

[haraldo]

I have no idea what the reference to ML1 means as I have never seen or heard any of the Lenehan Audio's products ever, but I guess what's achievced here is quite remarkable.... Good on ya

What matters in the end is to relax and enjoy the music

Looking forward to having a listen to these on Sunday (if we can squeeze it in..........)

I would like to join in to but I guess it's a bit unpractical, coz flights from Europe is so expensive nowadays

Edited by haraldo, 12 May 2012 - 01:02 AM.

[skippy124]

I would like to join in to but I guess it's a bit unpractical, coz flights from Europe is so expensive nowadays

We'll turn up the volume for you

Edited by skippy124, 12 May 2012 - 01:03 AM.

[haraldo]

We'll turn up the volume for you

Thx but I'm afraid you'll blow his amps

Edited by haraldo, 12 May 2012 - 01:06 AM.

[LuzArt]

Happy to give an unbiased opinion when the time's right Pete That's if you want one You're quite right when you say it's your system and ears.

Sent from my GT-I9100T using Tapatalk 2

[pete_mac]

Happy to give an unbiased opinion when the time's right Pete That's if you want one You're quite right when you say it's your system and ears

Indeed mate. We shall listen! It would be great if my synchro mesh arrived by then, but I think we will have to listen without it.

[pete_mac]

I took the clones to Casa Del Darko tonight for a bit of a listen.

They sounded smooth and easy to listen to when fed with a 12WPC class A valve amp, but were a bit lacking in terms of bass extension and dynamics. They really came to life when mated with a restored Sansui AU-517 (dual mono power supply, 65WPC) that I left with John for further listening in future. The clones certainly prefer a bit of grunt behind them to get up and boogie.

We also experimented with a bit of extra tweeter attenuation. We felt that a single 0.56 ohm resistor on the tweeter circuit (in addition to the 6.8 ohm resistor on the crossover board itself) was the best balance. We tried an extra 0.56 ohm resistor in series but felt that it took the attenuation one step to far.

[LuzArt]

Thanks for the update Pete, I take it the sensitivity of the clones is the reason they need some juice.

[pete_mac]

Yeah, I reckon so. The info for that particular amp indicates a preference for speakers which are 89db sensitivity or higher, and the clones are 85db-ish. The Sansui gives much better control and dynamics with these speakers. The valve amp certainly sounded clean and clear though!

[dammers31]

I took the clones to Casa Del Darko tonight for a bit of a listen.
They sounded smooth and easy to listen to when fed with a 12WPC class A valve amp, but were a bit lacking in terms of bass extension and dynamics. They really came to life when mated with a restored Sansui AU-517 (dual mono power supply, 65WPC) that I left with John for further listening in future. The clones certainly prefer a bit of grunt behind them to get up and boogie.

Hi Pete
My clones prefer a bit of grunt behind them as well to get them to sound their best. Im running mine with a Yammie AS500 which I think is very good but lacks enough lower end power. By the time i have lifted it up past 11 o'clock all is well but i would prefer not to always have to be so active in my listening.
I have a few Sub-woofers to choose from. To give an extra edge to my 1sc clones I have swapped around a few of them but none of them are sharp yet discreet enough (sorry best i can come up with) to stop me re-adjusting the sub(s). The clones are so smooth with great highs and mids, I now dont try to colour the sound.
Im still buying in to my Yamaha amp to tell the truth. i have sent on my Nad 3020B (wrong move)and my Yaqin VK-2100 (bruiser of an amp but no phono) but Im either going to get a yammie Power amp or go up to an AS-1000/regum sonofagum or something...
Interesting that Johnny darko is in on it as I remember a couple(few?) years ago when I bought mine(same place as yours) i missed out on the pair he sold. I wonder if it is too far in the past for him to contemplate the differences in sound after being tweaked. Mine are better (but different) than my B&W 602S3.
Good luck with your projects, its great to have come across this thread. cheers.

[pete_mac]

Victor (vmhf) invited me to bring my 1S clones over to his pad to compare them against his genuine 1SCs on his lovely system. As always, Victor was a gentleman and a squire.

Of course, I would have loved the clones to beat the 'real deal', but it simply wasn't the case. The clones did a very very respectable job given their modest asking price (1/5th the price of the 1SC, and about 1/4 the price including the crossover upgrades) but the 1SCs did sound cleaner, more coherent, and imaged better. They were more believeable. I think they also went a tad deeper in the bass department.

The comparison was very interesting indeed as I absolutely love how the clones sound in my own modest system (recently bettering some Dynaudios that I was trialling, and bettering Usher S520s comfortably), but Victor's high-end system laid each speaker's capabilities bear for all to see (hear?).

I'd wager that the special custom SEAS and ScanSpeak drivers are the main difference here. The woofers feature Excel-series motor structures with copper components throughout, whereas the 1S clones are the standard base-model driver. Likewise, the tweeters in the 1SC are tweaked to ProAc's specs, so they are different than those in the clones. The upgraded drivers were the big change when the Proac 1S transformed into the 1SC - so much so that ProAc offered a upgrade package to existing 1S owners which included new drivers and slightly adjusted crossovers to lift their 1S to the 1SC level of performance..

The crossovers in my clones use far better components than the 1S and 1SC speakers (nice inductors, better capacitors and resistors etc) so it just goes to show how manufacturers can manage to derive nice sounding speakers with the right combination of budget components! I'd love to muck around further with the crossover, but I don't have the time nor budget at present (and have yet to purchase speaker measurement equipment and software).

Notwithstanding the outcome of this comparison, I'm still very happy with the clones. It's an insight into the ProAc sound at pauper's price and are thoroughly enjoyable (until you hear the 1SCs on a cracking system like Victor's!)

Thanks again for an enjoyable night Victor, and most importantly, thanks for the loan of the 1SCs for further comparison in the comfort of my own home. I'm looking forward to seeing if some experimentation with the tweeter attenuation (the clones were run flat-out with no attenuation at Victor's), and possibly replacing the internal silver-plated wire with some Neotech UP-OCC copper or similar, can help to narrow the gap between the two.

Victor took some comparison photos so hopefully he will post these up, and may wish to share his thoughts on the comparison that we undertook.

PS. Loving your new amp too Victor... so very very 'right'.

[vmhf]

Summed up very nicely Pete.
I enjoyed their sound every bit as much as the 1SCs and would agree with you they sound better than quite a few other speakers out there at much higher price points.

In a nutshell the 1SC's in my system made the music sound a tad more real than the clones. In isolation both speakers were enjoyable and a testament to Pete's skills in tweaking things all HIFI.

[pete_mac]

Thanks Victor, and cheers for posting the photos!

[THOMO]

A great post.
Thanks for all the information and information.
I want to build a pair of these myself but using a solid jarrah dovetailed cabinet.

Also sort of confirms to me that standard type crossover components are fine.I have never heard any evidence that more expensive parts can be relied on to give better sound.Occasionally they might but they might also give a worse sound[which I have heard].

[twwen2]

Nice write-up gents.

[pete_mac]

Thank you kind sirs!

Also sort of confirms to me that standard type crossover components are fine.I have never heard any evidence that more expensive parts can be relied on to give better sound.Occasionally they might but they might also give a worse sound[which I have heard].

In this instance the modded crossovers sound noticeably nicer (IMHO anyway) than the ones originally fitted in the clones with the generic components fitted, so whilst I agree that boutique bits don't guarantee an outcome, they did the job for me in terms of improving over the original clone crossovers.

The fact that the clones can't match the 1SCs is driver-related rather than crossover-related. The Excel series woofer and modded tweeter are clearly a step above.

Edited by pete_mac, 13 August 2012 - 09:46 PM.

[THOMO]

Thank you kind sirs!



In this instance the modded crossovers sound noticeably nicer (IMHO anyway) than the ones originally fitted in the clones with the generic components fitted, so whilst I agree that boutique bits don't guarantee an outcome, they did the job for me in terms of improving over the original clone crossovers.

The fact that the clones can't match the 1SCs is driver-related rather than crossover-related. The Excel series woofer and modded tweeter are clearly a step above.

The trouble is unless you have two pairs of the same speakers but with different crossover components it is very hard to tell which sounds better.People obviously expect that more expensive components will sound better so they think they do.
I had three identical pairs of speakers with different brands of capacitors and resistors and they all sounded the same to me.

[pete_mac]

I know where you're coming from, but there was a clear improvement in this instance. Bear in mind that the tweaked crossover features revised component values and therefore functions differently to the original crossover. Accordingly, a direct comparison between new and old is not an apples with apples comparison, confusing the matter even further!

At the end of the day, I'm very satisfied win the results and I can hear the clear difference. Whether it's real or imaginary is something that could be argued all day long (as is often the case on SNA and other audio forums )