71 replies to this topic

[pete_mac]

Temptation (and plain old curiosity) got the better of me so I ordered a pair of these last Friday, and they arrived today from Hong Kong. Not bad!

I grabbed them from http://diykits.com.hk/1S%20Clone.htm and the colour is cherry veneer.

Of course, I pulled them apart to have a gander inside. The crossovers are nothing special, much like the original ProAc crossovers which use very run-of-the-mill parts. I did, however, notice that the crossover in this unit is different to the crossover on the troelsgravesen website, and also different to the original 1S crossover too. http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/T14.htm

I'm about to contact the vendor to ask why. I may end up building a new crossover in accordance with Troel's version.

The woofer is SEAS and the tweeter is Scan-Speak. Very nice quality.

The overall build quality of these is excellent for the dollars. There's obviously bits that could be improved upon (crossover, internal wiring, binding posts etc), but heck, for the money they represent outstanding value.

First impressions are that they are are a bit less detailed than the ML1s, but have a very nice sound stage and a tonal richness which is quite pleasant!

I'll be setting them up in the garage to clock up some hours before having a serious listen.

A few quick pics.

[seaninbrisbane]

Nice speakers - they seem like great value for money. I was just admiring your REL subwoofer; I also have ML1s and would like to add a sub at some point in the future.

[pete_mac]

Yeah, very good value for money IMHO if you can get past the fact that they're pretty much a direct copy of someone else's design.

I really like my REL T2. It complements the ML1s very nicely, adding extra bass extension in a seamless manner. Really looking forward to seeing how it goes with the clones as they are likely to need more assistance in the bass department compared to the ML1s.

[pete_mac]

Oops... forgot to add... I wonder where Usher got the inspiration for their S520s? The Usher woofers are pretty much a clone of these SEAS woofers. I bet they'd be 100% interchangeable (at least in terms of size/dimensions etc).

[datafone]

New toys, excellent

Be a fun pair to play with.

[John H. Darko]

$50 says you'll have upgraded the internal wiring before the long weekend is out.

[pete_mac]

$50 says you'll have upgraded the internal wiring before the long weekend is out.

I'm being a good boy and clocking up some decent hours on these first before mucking around with the internals.

The good old speaker burn-in rig (aka garage, old Marantz amp, many many blankets) has been running non-stop and I've clocked up 50 hours so far.

I've also heard back from the supplier. The crossover design in my clones is the latest version which has been tweaked a bit over the stock-standard crossover. They feel it is superior to the original 1S crossover, but of course they'd say that. Still, without any measuring equipment of my own (and without some original OEM 1S or 1SCs to compare against, who am I to say otherwise. If they can achieve 80-90% of the performance of the original 1S (the 1SC use the superior woofers so will always have an advantage) then I'll be pretty happy.

Watch this space.

[MultiplexMan]

I had a pair and they need a long burn in. I was able to compare the clones with the ProAc 1SC for an extended period. I was originally underwhelmed.

A long time later I remember walking into the main listening room and doing a double take. The drivers had finally broken in and the speakers were finally singing.

I had a mate visit a couple times and hear them over the course of their "aging". He ended up buying my ProAc 1SC instead of the clones - not because of the sound, but the badge!

I only moved them on because I prefer the imaging and voicing of the Tablette Reference 8 over the 1SC/clone.

The clones are super value for someone wanting "ProAc voicing" at a bargain price.

[A J]

Yeah, very good value for money IMHO if you can get past the fact that they're pretty much a direct copy of someone else's design.

I really like my REL T2. It complements the ML1s very nicely, adding extra bass extension in a seamless manner. Really looking forward to seeing how it goes with the clones as they are likely to need more assistance in the bass department compared to the ML1s.

Nice speakers - they seem like great value for money. I was just admiring your REL subwoofer; I also have ML1s and would like to add a sub at some point in the future.

Haha - snap - I have ML1's and a REL T2 in our audio/video setup. It's a great combo, I've set the REL to only come in at 50hz as the ML1's have enough output down to those sort of levels. I've seen a couple of T2's on ebay lately - I was tempted to grab another and run two? - I like your setup pete_mac

[pete_mac]

Haha - snap - I have ML1's and a REL T2 in our audio/video setup. It's a great combo, I've set the REL to only come in at 50hz as the ML1's have enough output down to those sort of levels. I've seen a couple of T2's on ebay lately - I was tempted to grab another and run two? - I like your setup pete_mac

Yeah, I happened to notice that you had a REL in a recent photo that you posted. Do you still have the MicroVee too? My mate Danny (who bought the Paradigms off you) mentioned that you had a little Velodyne and he was very impressed with it. Which of the two do you prefer?

I have mine coming in at 50hz just like you. It integrates really nicely IMHO.

I had a pair and they need a long burn in. I was able to compare the clones with the ProAc 1SC for an extended period. I was originally underwhelmed.

A long time later I remember walking into the main listening room and doing a double take. The drivers had finally broken in and the speakers were finally singing.

I had a mate visit a couple times and hear them over the course of their "aging". He ended up buying my ProAc 1SC instead of the clones - not because of the sound, but the badge!

I only moved them on because I prefer the imaging and voicing of the Tablette Reference 8 over the 1SC/clone.

The clones are super value for someone wanting "ProAc voicing" at a bargain price.

Ah, I'd seen a few posts by you on here and on audiokarma mentioning that you once had a pair of clones.

I'm glad to hear that you felt that they did compare reasonably favourably to the genuine article after a while.

How long do you reckon it took for them to start living up to your expectations?

I guess it would be hard to quantify exactly how long, particularly if you're listening to them in blocks of time here and there without actually keeping a record of it, as opposed to a continuous chunk of 'burn in ' time tracked by a spreadsheet (yep, I'm a lost cause ).

I'll have 100 hours up by Saturday night (say, the equivalent of a month of listening for 3 hours per day) and after a quick listen this weekend, I'll probably whack them back into the garage for a further week (taking them to 220 hours of use, or two and a bit months at the aforementioned 3 hours a day).

I figure that if I can get up 4-500 hours worth of use (ie. the equivalent of half a year worth of use at 3 hours a day) then they should be well and truly sorted by then.

[MultiplexMan]

@pete_mac

I had to refer to my journal. I ended up putting over 600 hours on them before they broke in and settled.

I had them in my primary system with a solid state amp playing music throughout the day. It took almost three months of "muzak". Music carries through my home from my primary system. I was still able to enjoy the music whilst the speakers broke in. It is such a waste to just play the speakers in a garage.

I remember discussing this with several colleagues at the time. The experience was very reminiscent of our experience with Focal Kevlar drivers. These tend to sound terrible when new but improve greatly with time.

[pete_mac]

Thanks for the info mate. Muchly appreciated.

I'd love to be able to listen to them during the entire burn-in process, but young kids and the setup of our house means that I'm limited to only 1-2 hours per night at the most. It would take me nearly a year to clock up 500-600 hours! I really want to accelerate the process as much as possible so that I can undertake some decent comparisons vs my ML1s and Ushers, in the knowledge that the clones have a decent amount of mileage to ensure they are performing as well as can be expected.

I'll still bring them inside for a decent listen every now and then, that's for sure. It's not much fun ducking out to the garage and hearing them playing through about 10 blankets whilst being fed with a mono signal.

[Braddles 63]

Just an idea Pete but why not run the TV through them when its on? An easy whay to put time on them without upseting anyone.

[pete_mac]

Just an idea Pete but why not run the TV through them when its on? An easy whay to put time on them without upseting anyone.

It's certainly an option, but the typical audio on tv shows isn't dynamic enough for my liking. I prefer to run them in with music and a bit of pink noise thrown in. It would still take an eternity to clock up the desired 5-600 hours based upon our viewing habits.

I'd also need to leave my main amp switched on for hours upon hours.

I'm using an older Marantz amp for the burn-in period. It's is perfect for the job, especially as it has a mono switch on the front. This allows me to face the speakers towards each other underneath several blankets (with one speaker wired out of phase) which cancels out some of the output. I can run the speakers at a reasonable volume level (even at night) without disturbing anyone. It works an absolute treat!

[daob]

Thanks for posting pete_mac. I've got a short trip to HK in a few weeks and was planning on popping in to see these guys and pick up a pair of clones for myself.
Happy to see positive things written about them (again).

[LuzArt]

These look interesting Pete, wouldn't mind a listen when you've broken them in.

[pete_mac]

Thanks for posting pete_mac. I've got a short trip to HK in a few weeks and was planning on popping in to see these guys and pick up a pair of clones for myself.
Happy to see positive things written about them (again).

So far, so good.

Although, I removed the crossovers over the weekend and noticed that one had an unsoldered inductor in the woofer notch filter. All fixed now though.

Still tossing up whether to replace the capacitors based upon the current crossover, or to change some conponent values to bring them in-line with Troels Gravesen's design. After I provided Troels with details of the current crossover, he wasn't quite sure to make of the current crossover design, thinking that it might inadvertantly attenuate the midrange.

I'm also thinking about adding threaded inserts for the woofer screws. I'm not sure whether the MDF enclosure will take too kindly to the removal and re-insertion of screws time and time again.

These look interesting Pete, wouldn't mind a listen when you've broken them in.

For sure mate!

Edited by pete_mac, 10 April 2012 - 07:16 PM.

[pete_mac]

Well well well... what do we have here?

A nice package full of Jantzen inductors and resistors from speakerbug.com.au was delivered today. Air-core inductors for the woofer and tweeter circuit and a permite-core inductor for the woofer LCR (notch filter) circuit. The woofer inductor is BIG!

I'm still waiting for some nice Clarity Cap ESA caps to arrive for the signal path for the tweeter circuit, but for the meantime I will fit some spare AXON caps. AXON caps will be used in the woofer circuit as these aren't so critical (not in the direct signal path of the woofer).

Looking forward to shoe-horning these onto the original crossover board or building a whole new board. I may even consider an external crossover.

[sjay]

going external like living voice does must have some real world benefit ....looking forward to how this pans out, good luck pete

[daob]

+1
will follow with interest!

[datafone]

Is that big one 3mm wire.....sweet!

[pete_mac]

Forgot to mention... I'll be rebuilding the crossovers to be truer to the original ProAc 1S design (ie. exactly the same as Troels Gravesen's design shown below) rather than the tweaked design that came in the clones.



http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/T14.htm

[pete_mac]

Is that big one 3mm wire.....sweet!

Not quite... 15AWG or 1.65mm2, but still big enough for this application!

[Nada]

Congrats Pete on another great mod process.
Good to see the burn in trick I posted a thread on is useful for someone. Give them heaps and I reckon the burn in could be drastically reduced. Something about power dissipation, plastic deformation and stoke extension going up exponentially with linear volume increase.

Edited by Nada, 13 April 2012 - 08:53 PM.

[datafone]

Looks much bigger in the pic, but now I know the "mH" I can see whey they look so big!

Definitely better than stock though

Those ESA Clarity caps have a good rep', should go well in them.

Edit: Geez...I should have just noticed the turns

Edited by datafone, 13 April 2012 - 08:55 PM.

[pete_mac]

Congrats Pete on another great mod process.
Good to see the burn in trick I posted a thread on is useful for someone. Give them heaps and I reckon the burn in could be drastically reduced. Something about power dissipation, plastic deformation and stoke extension going up exponentially with linear volume increase.

Yeah, that trick works nicely.

One thing that makes a big difference to noise levels during this kind of burn-in is sending a mono signal to the speakers. If you send a stereo signal to the speakers you get hardly any mid/high cancellation and only some minor bass cancellation. A mono signal results in the vast majority of the mids and highs being attenuated massively, along with more of the bass. The Marantz that I'm using for burn-in has a mono/stereo button on the front and pressing this button was a real eye-opener!

[Spukee]

Following this thread intently. I need a bookshelf speaker upgrade and been interested in the original 1SC, clone and Usher 520s since I heard a 1SC at Andre's (another SNA'er) place. Amazing openness.

Please do a shootout before you start the modding Mr Mac.

[pete_mac]

Please do a shootout before you start the modding Mr Mac.

Too late unfortunately... ze modding has begun!

The crossovers have been upgraded with the new inductors fitted, AXON caps fitted (temporarily in the tweeter circuit, as Clarity Caps ESA 630V jobbies are on their way from Canada shortly) and some new resistors. I also replaced the several thick wires for the woofers with some Synergistic Research cable that I had lying around.

Original crossover:






New inductors vs old inductors:




Repopulated crossover and original crossover:




Two repopulated crossovers ready to be reinstalled into the clones:




First impressions are very positive indeed. Greater clarity and depth. The treble is still pretty good with the 8.2 ohm resistor (as per Troels Gravesen's schematic) but I'm tempted to try a 6.8ohm again as per the original resistor in the clone. The original ProAc Response 1S had a 5.6ohm resistor in this position. The 6.8ohm resistor should tread the middle ground and I think it will achieve the best balance for my liking. We shall see...

Once I'm 100% set on the tweeter attenuation level I'll do some comparisons vs the ML1s and Ushers.

Edited by pete_mac, 14 April 2012 - 01:14 PM.

[pete_mac]

OCD kicking in... tweeter resistors changed already.

You might notice in the above pics that the tweeter resistors were two resistors in series. I ordered 8.2 ohms but was suppled with 6.2ohms and 2 ohms as they were out of stock of the 8.2. I was never really comfortable with the resistors mounted in that way... vibration city here we come!

Anyhow, I've fitted the 6.8ohm resistors to the crossover board. This will be my baseline for the tweeter level as there is certainly a lot more 'presence' with the 6.8 ohm compared to the 8.2 ohm resistors. I've got a bag of 0.33 ohm 5W resistors here which I can simply fit between the binding posts on the rear of the speaker. This is one benefit of bi-wire speaker terminal plates, particularly when the crossover is set up so that the very first component in the tweeter circuit is the attenuation resistor. Adding an external resistor is the same as adding an extra resistor in series on the crossover board. Too easy!

So far, even a solitary 0.33 ohm resistor for each tweeter knocks the level down just enough to balance things out. Very impressed!

I might make up a bunch of little binding post jumper leads with 0.33 ohm, 0.66 ohm and 0.99 ohm worth of resistors. In doing so, I can experiment with tweeter levels. I'm anticipating that either 0.33 or 0.66 will be the sweet-spot.

I must say... gee they are sounding nice. Certainly at a different level than the original clones. Not was warm and mushy.. I bet the change from electrolytics/mylars to polyprolylene capacitors has helped in this regard.

After a bit of a listen tonight I will whack these back outside on the burning-in rig and clock up some hours on these new capacitors, as well as more hours on the drivers.

Really looking forward to the Clarity Caps in the tweeter circuit now! The AXONs are basically Solens... they aren't the best capacitor for tweeter circuits (according to all of the internet forum capacitor gurus out there ) We shall see!

[alistairm]

First dibs on these when Pete decides to sell them to fund new adventures!

Looking awesome mate.

[pete_mac]

First dibs on these when Pete decides to sell them to fund new adventures!

Looking awesome mate.

Thank you sir!

I know that it is very early days and I'm still in the 'honeymoon period', but I'm strongly contemplating keeping these and moving on some other speakers instead. They are a very enjoyable listen, and they are still fairly 'young'. They can only get better with more hours under their belt (and the Clarity Caps in the tweeter circuit) so this should be an interesting ride indeed!

[pete_mac]

The Clarity Cap ESAs are now installed. The pics show how much bigger they are than the AXONs that I fitted temporarily. They sport nice solid copper insulated leads and look to to be very nicely made.

The clones are now back in the garage until next Monday (when I return from a short trip) and will be brought inside for a good listen. The speakers drivers will have over 700 hours on them, the AXONs and inductors around 450 hours, and the Clarity Caps around 170 hours. That'll do pig, that'll do.









The crossovers sure have come a long way!

Before:




After:

[datafone]

Nice, looking forward to how you find the Clarity caps over the Axons

[ayou2]

I noticed in one of your photos that you have the tweeters on the outside, proac always advised tweeters to the inside.

Nice speakers, congrats

[pete_mac]

I noticed in one of your photos that you have the tweeters on the outside, proac always advised tweeters to the inside.

Nice speakers, congrats

Thanks mate. You are spot on re: the correct tweeter positioning. In that pic, one of the speakers was plonked onto a stand for photographing only. Note that there are no speaker cables connected . When listening to them I have the tweeters on the inside.

After chatting to Dad I chickened-out on leaving the speakers and old amp running for four days straight without me being home. I didn't want to tempt fate and cook the
amp.

[LuzArt]

Any further impressions after your mods Pete?

[pete_mac]

Not as yet my friend. The speakers are still outside in the garage at the moment as I'm kind of reluctant to pack up my Lenehan ML1s until they sell.

As a result of the clones being in the garage on the 'burn in' system, the SEAS and Scan-Speak drivers will soon have 600 hours on them, the majority of the crossover will have 400 hours on it, and the Clarity Caps in the tweeter circuit will be around 200 hours old. I reckon they should be just about cooked

I'll bring them inside this weekend for a good listen methinks, and will certainly have them ready when you come to grab your lovely Kenwood

[Wilco]

gosh this thread has now reignited my curiousity
I remember my curiousity first started when MultiplexMan had one of these babies, and was selling his (what...3-4 years ago?)

and now that the AUD is strong, i have even less excuse not to....Grrrrrr
and fromt he pics, golli me the build quality looks fantastic to the average joe

[kajak12]

peter if you able to do a point to point xover and ditch the pcb

ps:great work enjoying your journey

Edited by kajak12, 03 May 2012 - 09:47 PM.

[pete_mac]

peter if you able to do a point to point xover and ditch the pcb

ps:great work enjoying your journey

Thanks mate. Maybe one day..for the time being the PCB is very convenient due to how the binding posts bolt directly through it. I may look at converting the speakers to a single pair of CMC solid copper binding posts in future, and if I do that, I will then redo the crossover point-to-point at the same time (and plug up the spare set of binding post holes).

[LuzArt]

Not as yet my friend. The speakers are still outside in the garage at the moment as I'm kind of reluctant to pack up my Lenehan ML1s until they sell.

As a result of the clones being in the garage on the 'burn in' system, the SEAS and Scan-Speak drivers will soon have 600 hours on them, the majority of the crossover will have 400 hours on it, and the Clarity Caps in the tweeter circuit will be around 200 hours old. I reckon they should be just about cooked

I'll bring them inside this weekend for a good listen methinks, and will certainly have them ready when you come to grab your lovely Kenwood

That should be interesting! Do you know the sensitivity of the clones? Something i'm noticing with my speakers with different amping combos is how much they need to be driven.

[pete_mac]

The original 1S is 86dB/1W/1M so I'd expect the clones to be close to this.

[Proac]

You, my friend, are one very cool dude.

[pete_mac]

You, my friend, are one very cool dude.

[Braddles 63]

Come on Pete. All this waiting is killing me. Have a listen to them for god sake (and mine) ;-)