pete_mac Posted April 3, 2012 Share Posted April 3, 2012 Temptation (and plain old curiosity) got the better of me so I ordered a pair of these last Friday, and they arrived today from Hong Kong. Not bad! I grabbed them from http://diykits.com.hk/1S%20Clone.htm and the colour is cherry veneer. Of course, I pulled them apart to have a gander inside. The crossovers are nothing special, much like the original ProAc crossovers which use very run-of-the-mill parts. I did, however, notice that the crossover in this unit is different to the crossover on the troelsgravesen website, and also different to the original 1S crossover too. http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/T14.htm I'm about to contact the vendor to ask why. I may end up building a new crossover in accordance with Troel's version. The woofer is SEAS and the tweeter is Scan-Speak. Very nice quality. The overall build quality of these is excellent for the dollars. There's obviously bits that could be improved upon (crossover, internal wiring, binding posts etc), but heck, for the money they represent outstanding value. First impressions are that they are are a bit less detailed than the ML1s, but have a very nice sound stage and a tonal richness which is quite pleasant! I'll be setting them up in the garage to clock up some hours before having a serious listen. A few quick pics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MooneeBeach Posted April 3, 2012 Share Posted April 3, 2012 Nice speakers - they seem like great value for money. I was just admiring your REL subwoofer; I also have ML1s and would like to add a sub at some point in the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete_mac Posted April 3, 2012 Author Share Posted April 3, 2012 Yeah, very good value for money IMHO if you can get past the fact that they're pretty much a direct copy of someone else's design. I really like my REL T2. It complements the ML1s very nicely, adding extra bass extension in a seamless manner. Really looking forward to seeing how it goes with the clones as they are likely to need more assistance in the bass department compared to the ML1s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete_mac Posted April 3, 2012 Author Share Posted April 3, 2012 Oops... forgot to add... I wonder where Usher got the inspiration for their S520s? The Usher woofers are pretty much a clone of these SEAS woofers. I bet they'd be 100% interchangeable (at least in terms of size/dimensions etc). 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Muon Posted April 3, 2012 Share Posted April 3, 2012 New toys, excellent Be a fun pair to play with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
New Sensations Posted April 3, 2012 Share Posted April 3, 2012 $50 says you'll have upgraded the internal wiring before the long weekend is out. :nana Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete_mac Posted April 5, 2012 Author Share Posted April 5, 2012 $50 says you'll have upgraded the internal wiring before the long weekend is out. :nana I'm being a good boy and clocking up some decent hours on these first before mucking around with the internals. The good old speaker burn-in rig (aka garage, old Marantz amp, many many blankets) has been running non-stop and I've clocked up 50 hours so far. I've also heard back from the supplier. The crossover design in my clones is the latest version which has been tweaked a bit over the stock-standard crossover. They feel it is superior to the original 1S crossover, but of course they'd say that. Still, without any measuring equipment of my own (and without some original OEM 1S or 1SCs to compare against, who am I to say otherwise. If they can achieve 80-90% of the performance of the original 1S (the 1SC use the superior woofers so will always have an advantage) then I'll be pretty happy. Watch this space. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MultiplexMan Posted April 5, 2012 Share Posted April 5, 2012 I had a pair and they need a long burn in. I was able to compare the clones with the ProAc 1SC for an extended period. I was originally underwhelmed. A long time later I remember walking into the main listening room and doing a double take. The drivers had finally broken in and the speakers were finally singing. I had a mate visit a couple times and hear them over the course of their "aging". He ended up buying my ProAc 1SC instead of the clones - not because of the sound, but the badge! I only moved them on because I prefer the imaging and voicing of the Tablette Reference 8 over the 1SC/clone. The clones are super value for someone wanting "ProAc voicing" at a bargain price. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A J Posted April 5, 2012 Share Posted April 5, 2012 Yeah, very good value for money IMHO if you can get past the fact that they're pretty much a direct copy of someone else's design. I really like my REL T2. It complements the ML1s very nicely, adding extra bass extension in a seamless manner. Really looking forward to seeing how it goes with the clones as they are likely to need more assistance in the bass department compared to the ML1s. Nice speakers - they seem like great value for money. I was just admiring your REL subwoofer; I also have ML1s and would like to add a sub at some point in the future. Haha - snap - I have ML1's and a REL T2 in our audio/video setup. It's a great combo, I've set the REL to only come in at 50hz as the ML1's have enough output down to those sort of levels. I've seen a couple of T2's on ebay lately - I was tempted to grab another and run two? - I like your setup pete_mac Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete_mac Posted April 5, 2012 Author Share Posted April 5, 2012 Haha - snap - I have ML1's and a REL T2 in our audio/video setup. It's a great combo, I've set the REL to only come in at 50hz as the ML1's have enough output down to those sort of levels. I've seen a couple of T2's on ebay lately - I was tempted to grab another and run two? - I like your setup pete_mac Yeah, I happened to notice that you had a REL in a recent photo that you posted. Do you still have the MicroVee too? My mate Danny (who bought the Paradigms off you) mentioned that you had a little Velodyne and he was very impressed with it. Which of the two do you prefer? I have mine coming in at 50hz just like you. It integrates really nicely IMHO. I had a pair and they need a long burn in. I was able to compare the clones with the ProAc 1SC for an extended period. I was originally underwhelmed. A long time later I remember walking into the main listening room and doing a double take. The drivers had finally broken in and the speakers were finally singing. I had a mate visit a couple times and hear them over the course of their "aging". He ended up buying my ProAc 1SC instead of the clones - not because of the sound, but the badge! I only moved them on because I prefer the imaging and voicing of the Tablette Reference 8 over the 1SC/clone. The clones are super value for someone wanting "ProAc voicing" at a bargain price. Ah, I'd seen a few posts by you on here and on audiokarma mentioning that you once had a pair of clones. I'm glad to hear that you felt that they did compare reasonably favourably to the genuine article after a while. How long do you reckon it took for them to start living up to your expectations? I guess it would be hard to quantify exactly how long, particularly if you're listening to them in blocks of time here and there without actually keeping a record of it, as opposed to a continuous chunk of 'burn in ' time tracked by a spreadsheet (yep, I'm a lost cause ). I'll have 100 hours up by Saturday night (say, the equivalent of a month of listening for 3 hours per day) and after a quick listen this weekend, I'll probably whack them back into the garage for a further week (taking them to 220 hours of use, or two and a bit months at the aforementioned 3 hours a day). I figure that if I can get up 4-500 hours worth of use (ie. the equivalent of half a year worth of use at 3 hours a day) then they should be well and truly sorted by then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MultiplexMan Posted April 6, 2012 Share Posted April 6, 2012 @pete_mac I had to refer to my journal. I ended up putting over 600 hours on them before they broke in and settled. :eek: I had them in my primary system with a solid state amp playing music throughout the day. It took almost three months of "muzak". Music carries through my home from my primary system. I was still able to enjoy the music whilst the speakers broke in. It is such a waste to just play the speakers in a garage. I remember discussing this with several colleagues at the time. The experience was very reminiscent of our experience with Focal Kevlar drivers. These tend to sound terrible when new but improve greatly with time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete_mac Posted April 6, 2012 Author Share Posted April 6, 2012 Thanks for the info mate. Muchly appreciated. I'd love to be able to listen to them during the entire burn-in process, but young kids and the setup of our house means that I'm limited to only 1-2 hours per night at the most. It would take me nearly a year to clock up 500-600 hours! I really want to accelerate the process as much as possible so that I can undertake some decent comparisons vs my ML1s and Ushers, in the knowledge that the clones have a decent amount of mileage to ensure they are performing as well as can be expected. I'll still bring them inside for a decent listen every now and then, that's for sure. It's not much fun ducking out to the garage and hearing them playing through about 10 blankets whilst being fed with a mono signal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Braddles 63 Posted April 7, 2012 Share Posted April 7, 2012 Just an idea Pete but why not run the TV through them when its on? An easy whay to put time on them without upseting anyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete_mac Posted April 7, 2012 Author Share Posted April 7, 2012 Just an idea Pete but why not run the TV through them when its on? An easy whay to put time on them without upseting anyone. It's certainly an option, but the typical audio on tv shows isn't dynamic enough for my liking. I prefer to run them in with music and a bit of pink noise thrown in. It would still take an eternity to clock up the desired 5-600 hours based upon our viewing habits. I'd also need to leave my main amp switched on for hours upon hours. I'm using an older Marantz amp for the burn-in period. It's is perfect for the job, especially as it has a mono switch on the front. This allows me to face the speakers towards each other underneath several blankets (with one speaker wired out of phase) which cancels out some of the output. I can run the speakers at a reasonable volume level (even at night) without disturbing anyone. It works an absolute treat! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daob Posted April 10, 2012 Share Posted April 10, 2012 Thanks for posting pete_mac. I've got a short trip to HK in a few weeks and was planning on popping in to see these guys and pick up a pair of clones for myself. Happy to see positive things written about them (again). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LuzArt Posted April 10, 2012 Share Posted April 10, 2012 These look interesting Pete, wouldn't mind a listen when you've broken them in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete_mac Posted April 10, 2012 Author Share Posted April 10, 2012 (edited) Thanks for posting pete_mac. I've got a short trip to HK in a few weeks and was planning on popping in to see these guys and pick up a pair of clones for myself. Happy to see positive things written about them (again). So far, so good. Although, I removed the crossovers over the weekend and noticed that one had an unsoldered inductor in the woofer notch filter. All fixed now though. Still tossing up whether to replace the capacitors based upon the current crossover, or to change some conponent values to bring them in-line with Troels Gravesen's design. After I provided Troels with details of the current crossover, he wasn't quite sure to make of the current crossover design, thinking that it might inadvertantly attenuate the midrange. I'm also thinking about adding threaded inserts for the woofer screws. I'm not sure whether the MDF enclosure will take too kindly to the removal and re-insertion of screws time and time again. These look interesting Pete, wouldn't mind a listen when you've broken them in. For sure mate! Edited April 10, 2012 by pete_mac Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete_mac Posted April 13, 2012 Author Share Posted April 13, 2012 Well well well... what do we have here? A nice package full of Jantzen inductors and resistors from speakerbug.com.au was delivered today. Air-core inductors for the woofer and tweeter circuit and a permite-core inductor for the woofer LCR (notch filter) circuit. The woofer inductor is BIG! I'm still waiting for some nice Clarity Cap ESA caps to arrive for the signal path for the tweeter circuit, but for the meantime I will fit some spare AXON caps. AXON caps will be used in the woofer circuit as these aren't so critical (not in the direct signal path of the woofer). Looking forward to shoe-horning these onto the original crossover board or building a whole new board. I may even consider an external crossover. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sjay Posted April 13, 2012 Share Posted April 13, 2012 going external like living voice does must have some real world benefit ....looking forward to how this pans out, good luck pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daob Posted April 13, 2012 Share Posted April 13, 2012 +1 will follow with interest! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Muon Posted April 13, 2012 Share Posted April 13, 2012 Is that big one 3mm wire.....sweet! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete_mac Posted April 13, 2012 Author Share Posted April 13, 2012 Forgot to mention... I'll be rebuilding the crossovers to be truer to the original ProAc 1S design (ie. exactly the same as Troels Gravesen's design shown below) rather than the tweaked design that came in the clones. http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/T14.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete_mac Posted April 13, 2012 Author Share Posted April 13, 2012 Is that big one 3mm wire.....sweet! Not quite... 15AWG or 1.65mm2, but still big enough for this application! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nada Posted April 13, 2012 Share Posted April 13, 2012 (edited) Congrats Pete on another great mod process. Good to see the burn in trick I posted a thread on is useful for someone. Give them heaps and I reckon the burn in could be drastically reduced. Something about power dissipation, plastic deformation and stoke extension going up exponentially with linear volume increase. Edited April 13, 2012 by Nada Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Muon Posted April 13, 2012 Share Posted April 13, 2012 (edited) Looks much bigger in the pic, but now I know the "mH" I can see whey they look so big! Definitely better than stock though Those ESA Clarity caps have a good rep', should go well in them. Edit: Geez...I should have just noticed the turns Edited April 13, 2012 by datafone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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