71 replies to this topic

[SGR]

Greetings Turntable Connoisseurs!


I am proud to announce that SGR Audio has just been selected to handle the Accurion range of active vibration isolating platforms.

Specifically designed and built for the audiophile market, it is my pleasure to introduce The Silencer, the ultimate isolation solution for any turntable!

 The_Silencer2_1920x1200.jpg   39.49K   171 downloads

Here is one case where there is no question that active is better than passive...

 Silencer_active_vs_passive.jpg   11.44K   147 downloads

More info here


Cheers,

Stuart

[turntable]

Excellent Stuart!

I was going to ask for a demo, until I saw the price. This will need a LOT more savings.

Good luck with it, for the premium price it must be an amazing product.

[Tax]

Congratulations Stuart!

[Decky]

I do not want to blow in our own trumpet - but I worked in areas of engineering that include optics and opto-mechanics where vibration control is the major issue. Active vibration control that is applied in the Silencer is the holy grail of stability - there is simply nothing technologically more advanced than that. If you want to be sure you are doing everything right to stabilise your turntables - this is it - there is nowhere else to go.

[davidsss]

There is one place to go: the building I used to work in had concrete floors with concrete reinforcement under them. It was made for photonics tables back in the 1970s and the floors are unbelievable: no vibration at all. But, short of having floors like that at home, and let me tell you suspended wooden floors are a long way from that, you need some isolation. Active isolation is an interesting approach. Be interested to see how people go with these. Don't think I want to see the price tag!

DS

[JohnA]

Don't think I want to see the price tag!

DS

i had a quick look after turntables post

dont think it will be something i will be owning

[Dr Good Vibe]

Oh yes price is huge sure it's a great unit. come on john you want one.
Stuart can you make some comments on improvement in sound detail etc over what you might get with other units say the likes of Kinetics.

Edited by Dr Good Vibe, 21 March 2012 - 08:02 PM.

[Stump]

I often wonder no matter how much you spend on a high end turntable the sound bouncing around the room would affect the cart from all angles! I was considering drilling a hole in the wall and put the turntable in the next room.

[GregWormald]

Many years ago I was ordered to bed for two months, but had to get up every half hour or so to maintain mobility (fractured spine!)

I moved the speakers into the bedroom and proceeded to play my record collection from A to Z, with the t/t still in the living room. This was some of the best sound ever!

Drill away mate.

Greg

[joz]

I often wonder no matter how much you spend on a high end turntable the sound bouncing around the room would affect the cart from all angles! I was considering drilling a hole in the wall and put the turntable in the next room.

Well, you wouldn't be the first to have all your components other than your speakers in another room.

Stuart,I'm to afraid to check the price.

[YoungBoy]

I'm sure it sounds fantastic. I'm sure there will be some find it desirable. The look is overkill for me. Even if, most unlikely, I can afford it.

[andyr]

In what way does it differ from a Vibraplane (whose technology is a trickle-down from isolation devices for electron microscopes)?

Because it sure is more expensive!

Regards,

Andy

[zipstartcanoe]

Awesome looking bit of kit!!

I asked my partner (who is a physicist) if she could build me something similar to what she used in her lab for laser manipulation of nano particles..... Unfortunately, I was about $150k light on!

[JohnA]

Awesome looking bit of kit!!

I asked my partner (who is a physicist) if she could build me something similar to what she used in her lab for laser manipulation of nano particles..... Unfortunately, I was about $150k light on!

so this one at $15k is an absolute steal

cant wait to read your review on it

[zipstartcanoe]

^ prepare for disappointment John!

[Dr Good Vibe]

Ok lets get some info on the table boys what makes it worth 15K+

[analog brother]

damn - i was interested too until i had a look at the picture. knew it was gonna hurt....

[Dr Good Vibe]

I suppose it's cheaper than the Castellon table It supports only one piece of gear. Zero Gravity was about 5K and I've heard that under the Continuum.
How much do they cost in Germany? + shipping etc.
Sorry one last question is this thread a bit like Once Mods?

[Catostylus]

Would it work better than a stack of old Sydney Morning Heralds?

[SGR]

Oh yes price is huge sure it's a great unit. come on john you want one.
Stuart can you make some comments on improvement in sound detail etc over what you might get with other units say the likes of Kinetics.

Yeah come on John you know you want one! I'll make it easier for you, SNA group buy! 15% discount if we get at least 5 buyers???

Hi Dr GV, I can't say exactly what improvement it would be over the competitors, but recently a local audiophile with quite a decent system (think B&W Nautilus and DCS Scarlatti) tried one out and reported back that it is the best improvement he has ever made to his system. He tried it individually on his pre-amp (valve based), his CD transport and his DAC. He said it improved each component considerably, has placed an order for 1 unit and is contemplating ordering another 2 more

[SGR]

Would it work better than a stack of old Sydney Morning Heralds?

Depends on the composition of the paper, if they happen to put cotton fibers in there it may just have high enough damping factor!

[SGR]

In what way does it differ from a Vibraplane (whose technology is a trickle-down from isolation devices for electron microscopes)?

Because it sure is more expensive!

Regards,

Andy

Hi Andy,

I think the main differences are in the transmissibility below about 10Hz. The Vibraplane seems to have only about 50% isolation at 5Hz, where the Silencer has 95%. Also the Vibraplane seems to suffer the low frequency resonance problem common to all passive devices. At 1Hz it amplifies instead of isolates compared to the Silencer which still has 40-50% isolation at 1Hz. The low frequency resonance of the Vibraplane would indicate that it rings in the time domain. It's fairly well damped, but even with its Q of what looks about 1.3, think of it as 1 cycle goes in and 1.3 cycles comes out at higher amplitude than the input.

Here's a pic of the internals of the Silencer. Some serious engineering inside, but unfortunately like most things to get that last little bit of performance you often need to double or triple the price!

[ATTACH=CONFIG]42399[/ATTACH]

Another point of difference with the Silencer is that it has basically the same isolation in the horizontal and vertical axis. 95% @ 5Hz and 99% from 10Hz and above!

Cheers,

Stuart

[GFuNK]

Stuart,

Do you know how this implements the feedback control? I'm assuming the control forces are proportional to velocity (this results in active damping). I'm interested in the actuator and transducer placements with relation to the flexural modes of the mounting plate and any recommended equipment mounting points. What is the high frequency limit on the controller?

[Dr Good Vibe]

Ok Stuart I only need another 4 on board. 10k. Is there a load limit something around 120kg would be sitting on it.

Sorry haven't read the brochure yet.

[Chickenism]

Morning all,

What interests me about this device is how much it might be able to elevate the performance of a good, solid mid-level turntable; say, a $4-5K unit. I know a $15K isolation device under a $5K turntable doesn't seem to make much sense. But when you stop to think about how much effort turntable designers put into isolation and/or damping of vibrations, it seems to me that's where the money goes as you head upmarket (I'll conveniently leave aesthetics out of the argument )

Thinking about what it might cost me to go for a serious upgrade over what I have, the asking price for one of these is put into perspective. The two turntables that I've heard in recent times that might sound significantly better than what I already own are both $15-20K propositions anyway - then add in arm and cartridge.

Perhaps this would be a better upgrade than a whole new turntable. Would be an interesting comparison I think.

Cheers, Dave

Edited by Chickenism, 19 March 2012 - 09:04 AM.

[cmcook]

Mind me asking what the units on the Y axis of the graph are?

mm, g, m/s???

Thanks

[SGR]

Mind me asking what the units on the Y axis of the graph are?

mm, g, m/s???

Thanks

It's amplitude of "something", possibly mm, but not sure that it really matters. The graph is just for relative comparison.

[Tax]

Morning all,

What interests me about this device is how much it might be able to elevate the performance of a good, solid mid-level turntable; say, a $4-5K unit. I know a $15K isolation device under a $5K turntable doesn't seem to make much sense. But when you stop to think about how much effort turntable designers put into isolation and/or damping of vibrations, it seems to me that's where the money goes as you head upmarket (I'll conveniently leave aesthetics out of the argument )

Thinking about what it might cost me to go for a serious upgrade over what I have, the asking price for one of these is put into perspective. The two turntables that I've heard in recent times that might sound significantly better than what I already own are both $15-20K propositions anyway - then add in arm and cartridge.

Perhaps this would be a better upgrade than a whole new turntable. Would be an interesting comparison I think.

Cheers, Dave

Hi Dave,

Hope you are well!

I find it hard to comprehend that someone who has a $5k unit would be buying a $10k stand for it in this day..a bit like me putting mag wheels and a sports silencer on my Ford Lazer back in the day :-) unfortunately it was still a Ford..ROFL

Not wanting to detract from the technology and the costs asociated/involved in this product but it is best served to those on a cost no object approach to getting the best sound in which case they would probably already own a TT on the other side of $10K, a cartridge in the $5k plus range and a phonostage of equal or more value.

The gains from these and other similar isolation devices are not a 50% or more increase in SQ, 10% - 15% at best.

I would love to hear your findings if you are able to loan one from Stuart.

Cheers
T

[warren2503]

Hi CM Cook
The Y axis is in Milligal. This is the standard measure for vibration ( i have a bit of experience trying to improve ride quality in elevators ) it allows for measurement of three dimensional vibration. Definition bellow.
A unit of acceleration commonly used in geodetic measurements, equal to 10-3 galileo, or 10-5 meter per second per second. Abbreviated mGal

Read more: http://www.answers.c...l#ixzz1pWj7lqyO

[Catostylus]

So the galileo is an SI unit?

[Catostylus]

Ah.

To answer my own question:
From http://en.wikipedia..../Galileo_(unit)

The gal, sometimes called galileo, (symbol Gal) is a unit of acceleration used extensively in the science of gravimetry.[1][2][3] The gal is defined as 1 centimeter per second squared (1 cm/s²).

The gal is not part of the International System of Units (known by its French-language initials “SI”). However, in 1978 the CIPM decided that it was permissible to use the gal “with the SI until the CIPM considers that [its] use is no longer necessary.”[2][4]

The gal is a derived unit, defined in terms of the centimeter-gram-second (CGS) base unit of length, the centimeter, and the second, which is the base unit of time in both the CGS as well as the modern SI system. In SI base units, 1 Gal is precisely equal to 0.01 m/s².

The acceleration due to Earth’s gravity (see Standard gravity) at its surface is 976 to 983 Gal, the variation being due mainly to differences in latitude and elevation. Mountains and masses of lesser density within the Earth's crust typically cause variations in gravitational acceleration of tens to hundreds of milligals (mGal). The gravity gradient (variation with height) above Earth’s surface is about 3.1 µGal per centimeter of height (3.1×10−6 s–2), resulting in a maximum difference of about 2 Gal (0.02 m/s2) from the top of Mount Everest to sea level.[5]

Unless it is being used at the beginning of a sentence or in paragraph or section titles, the unit name gal is properly spelled with a lowercase g. As with the torr and its symbol, the unit name (gal) and its symbol (Gal) are spelled identically except that the latter is capitalized.

The gal is named after Galileo Galilei, a physicist who made the first measurements of the Earth’s gravity.

It can also be used to measure peak ground acceleration in earthquakes.

[heman_]

Morning all,

What interests me about this device is how much it might be able to elevate the performance of a good, solid mid-level turntable; say, a $4-5K unit. I know a $15K isolation device under a $5K turntable doesn't seem to make much sense. But when you stop to think about how much effort turntable designers put into isolation and/or damping of vibrations, it seems to me that's where the money goes as you head upmarket (I'll conveniently leave aesthetics out of the argument )

Thinking about what it might cost me to go for a serious upgrade over what I have, the asking price for one of these is put into perspective. The two turntables that I've heard in recent times that might sound significantly better than what I already own are both $15-20K propositions anyway - then add in arm and cartridge.

Perhaps this would be a better upgrade than a whole new turntable. Would be an interesting comparison I think.

Cheers, Dave

would have to agree with you.

Im struggling to think of any modern high end turntables without some sort of suspension or dampening built in, which should become redundant on one of these devices.

[caliburn]

Technology
Isolation principle
Spring-mass-system with coupled
8 sensor-actuator units, control
circuit based on Sky-Hook principle
Force directions
All six degrees of freedom actively dampen
Bandwidth
0.6 to 200 Hz active
> 200 Hz passive vibration isolation
Isolation performance
> 5 Hz = - 25 dB (94.4% isolation)
> 10 Hz = - 40 dB (99.0% isolation)
Response time
5 ms
Settling time
(for pulse exitation)
< 300 ms
Maximum dynamic forces
± 8 N in vertical direction
± 4 N in horizontal direction

[caliburn]

Passive System
www.minusk.com
Performance:

Based on field testing and user evaluations, the Minus K 1/2-Hz vibration isolation platforms and workstations perform about 10 to 100 times better than high-performance air tables depending on the vibration isolation frequencies. They also perform better than active or electronic-cancellation systems.

The transmissibility curves, which compare top-performing air tables with the typical Minus K 1/2-Hz performance, are shown below. Minus K isolators (adjusted to 1/2 Hz) achieve 93% isolation efficiency at 2 Hz, 99% at 5 Hz, and 99.7% at 10 Hz. Isolation performance closely follows that of an ideal undamped single DOF system up to about 10 Hz and reaches a floor in the transmissibility curve with some resonances at the higher frequencies.

The Minus K curve below is typical for any Minus K 1/2-Hz system, horizontal or vertical. Measured transmissibility curves for some Minus K bench top products are also shown on their website
.

[caliburn]

So turntables will create their own resonances at 0.55hz (33RPM) and this will cause motional artifacts constantly exciting the "plinth". Coupled with resonances from bearing precession which include vertical "bounce" modes (including as high as a few hundred hz) from precessional waves colliding over the bearing center, the isolator will need to cope with equipment generated vibration as well as floor borne vibration. It becomes the meat in the sandwich. Active systems will experience some lag and settling times and in a lab with a microscope on top. These fast settling times are nice to have. Passive systems take longer depending on the amount of damping they use to tame any spring motions.
However a moving mass like a turntable will "fight" the active system constantly leading to "push and shove" as the active system tries to "out dance" the "dancing partner" and bring it to heel.
Based on personal experience since 1999 a passive solution like the MinusK shouldn't be overlooked when shopping for a new TT foundation. Prices for COTS Minusk range from 2500USD and up for heavy payloads. No power, no pumps, no leaky air bladders and exceptional performance. Looks are plain and industrial but that is not in question here.
I just look at the real world performance using turntables as the payload. Also they work a charm under phono stages, preamps, cd/dacs and any device needing isolation from floor modes (especially on timber floors with footfalls and if inclined to ask - yes concrete does transmit vibration too)
Happy to discuss

[GFuNK]

Passive System
www.minusk.com
Performance:

Based on field testing and user evaluations, the Minus K 1/2-Hz vibration isolation platforms and workstations perform about 10 to 100 times better than high-performance air tables depending on the vibration isolation frequencies. They also perform better than active or electronic-cancellation systems.

The transmissibility curves, which compare top-performing air tables with the typical Minus K 1/2-Hz performance, are shown below. Minus K isolators (adjusted to 1/2 Hz) achieve 93% isolation efficiency at 2 Hz, 99% at 5 Hz, and 99.7% at 10 Hz. Isolation performance closely follows that of an ideal undamped single DOF system up to about 10 Hz and reaches a floor in the transmissibility curve with some resonances at the higher frequencies.

The Minus K curve below is typical for any Minus K 1/2-Hz system, horizontal or vertical. Measured transmissibility curves for some Minus K bench top products are also shown on their website
.

These zero-stiffness devices are highly non-linear, they don't seem to mention that ... all well and good as long as you don't have any significant or sudden changes in dynamic loading... You really need to understand the excitation spectra to design an appropriate isolation system.

You mentioned 0.55 Hz excitation frequency for 33rpm in the quote below... please note this is not a "resonance". Using this isolation system, the excitation frequency is very close to the rigid body resonance of 0.5 Hz, in this case, this will result in amplification, not attenuation...

[Rockford]

How do they stop vibrations that are coming through the air as sound which is hitting the equipment?

[Dr Good Vibe]

caliburn your back great post now any spare units around.

[Dr Good Vibe]

Ok here is a goer

The New MK26 Series Vibration Control Workstation with more ergonomic comfort is designed specifically for ultra-low natural frequency applications. The system utilizes MinusK patented negative stiffness vibration isolators in order to provide a compact, passive Vibration Isolation Workstation with ultra-low natural frequencies, higher internal structural frequencies, and excellent vertical and horizontal isolation efficiencies. The MK26 has also been upgraded to provide much better user comfort and additional leg space.

Get a Quote | Give us Your Challenge

Features/Benefits:

• New Ergonomic Design
  
  
• Ultra-Low Natural Frequencies
  
• Vibradamped Frame
  
• Customizable Accessories
  
• No Air Supply Needed - Easy to Use
  
• Choice of Tabletops
  
• Ergonomic Styling

Table top options include Granite, Steel, Composite & Honeycomb.

The MinusK vertical isolator uses a stiff spring and negative-stiffness mechanism to achieve a low net vertical stiffness without affecting the static load supporting capability.
Horizontal vibration isolation is provided by beam columns connected in series with the vertical-motion isolator.
Adjusted to a 1/2 Hz natural frequency, the workstation achieves 93% isolation efficiency at 2 Hz, 99% at 5 Hz and 99.7% at 10 Hz.
The MK26 Series can be configured for a wide variety of applications and customized with most of our vibration isolation workstation accessories.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]42464[/ATTACH]

[GFuNK]

How do they stop vibrations that are coming through the air as sound which is hitting the equipment?

That's a very good question, they don't ...

You always need to deal with the weakest link, there is no use in spending 15k reducing structural vibration transmission if the acoustic path became dominant many dB ago.

It's like tying Usain Bolt to a fat kid for a three legged race...

Care needs to be taken that the right isolation system is chosen. As was pointed out, these minusk systems with a resonance at 0.5 Hz could make things worse for machinery rotating at 33rpm. They are also highly non-linear which does not suit many applications.

Edited by GFuNK, 20 March 2012 - 07:50 AM.

[DaveMS]

It's like tying Usain Bolt to a fat kid for a three legged race...

I'd pay $15K just to see that.

[turntable]

Ok here is a goer

The New MK26 Series Vibration Control Workstation with more ergonomic comfort is designed specifically for ultra-low natural frequency applications. The system utilizes MinusK patented negative stiffness vibration isolators in order to provide a compact, passive Vibration Isolation Workstation with ultra-low natural frequencies, higher internal structural frequencies, and excellent vertical and horizontal isolation efficiencies. The MK26 has also been upgraded to provide much better user comfort and additional leg space.

Get a Quote | Give us Your Challenge

Features/Benefits:

• New Ergonomic Design
  
  
• Ultra-Low Natural Frequencies
  
• Vibradamped Frame
  
• Customizable Accessories
  
• No Air Supply Needed - Easy to Use
  
• Choice of Tabletops
  
• Ergonomic Styling

Table top options include Granite, Steel, Composite & Honeycomb.

The MinusK vertical isolator uses a stiff spring and negative-stiffness mechanism to achieve a low net vertical stiffness without affecting the static load supporting capability.
Horizontal vibration isolation is provided by beam columns connected in series with the vertical-motion isolator.
Adjusted to a 1/2 Hz natural frequency, the workstation achieves 93% isolation efficiency at 2 Hz, 99% at 5 Hz and 99.7% at 10 Hz.
The MK26 Series can be configured for a wide variety of applications and customized with most of our vibration isolation workstation accessories.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]42464[/ATTACH]

GV, these things are over 8k. the BM-8 in the 2k mark is a lot better option IMO

[wolster]

I'd pay $15K just to see that.

Classic :-)

[Dr Good Vibe]

GV, these things are over 8k. the BM-8 in the 2k mark is a lot better option IMO

Yes TT it is but more info finding and it turns out that the BM1 is the unit to go for this is a desktop unit better to my needs and will deal with up to 120Kg and 1/2 Hz and just over the half way mark in cost there abouts hmmm.

But by all reports a number of major players now have bought them and I will be one they come with high prase indeed.

Edited by Dr Good Vibe, 21 March 2012 - 03:46 PM.

[warren2503]

I think it's poor form to raise other products on a thread that is started by a sponsor announcing the release of a new product .
If you don't like the product or think there are better available you can always start a new thread


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