68 replies to this topic

[Whatmore]

As a keen reader and sometime contributor to SNA I am concerned at what I see as a worsening trend.
That is, no-one listens. I'm not talking about music or systems. I'm talking about listening to a view that is different to their narrowly held beliefs about anything.

This constant standing in entrenched corners shouting at each other is becoming dull very quickly.

Can anyone, hand on heart, honestly say that they have heard and possibly even understood someone else's contrary view on SNA (be it about valves, vinyl, lattes, DACs, politics, religion ... hell just about anything. And I include myself in this criticism)

No doubt this thread will descend into a self righteous spiral of "I listen, it's those guys who never do"

[Lil Caesar]

I have found some threads and posts a bit intimidating. Always happy to be corrected on technical matters of fact but we ought not need to constantly remind each other of our entitlement to a point of view.

[holdencaulfield2007]

Just occasionally I am shocked and pleasantly surprised when I find myself agreeing with the view point of certain particular posters. You know the type, entrenched intractable views that get you steamed up into a self righteous lather and then you read something that contradicts your preconceived views about them. IMHO ,This forum is far less radical and extreme than several others I visit.

[proftournesol]

There's listening but disagreeing, and then there's not listening....
One thing I've never understood is people who get angry at others who don't agree with them, what is that about?

[Super Mustud]

I listen, it's those guys who never do.

[caddisgeek]

would that be voices in your head Colonel?

but yes, I agree with the OP, and Prof

[Milo]

I'm sorry I can't hear you over the latte espresso machine...

[Drizt]

I hadn't noticed Whatmore

This is a good and timely thread.

[Bear72]

I hadn't noticed Whatmore

This is a good and timely thread.

See, you're at it again- pushing your 'timely thread' agenda. What about those of us that think it's untimely? Or timeless? There may also be those of us who believe that the Pace and Rhythm of the thread is more important. Care to provide measurements to support your claim of timeliness?

Humph! Timing indeed...

[brumby]

Indeed! I call discrimination. How dare you omit the PRA from PRAT and then smugly claim this to be a good thread!

[Jake]

See, you're at it again- pushing your 'timely thread' agenda. What about those of us that think it's untimely? Or timeless? There may also be those of us who believe that the Pace and Rhythm of the thread is more important. Care to provide measurements to support your claim of timeliness?

Humph! Timing indeed...

[88pro]

See, you're at it again- pushing your 'timely thread' agenda. What about those of us that think it's untimely? Or timeless? There may also be those of us who believe that the Pace and Rhythm of the thread is more important. Care to provide measurements to support your claim of timeliness?

Humph! Timing indeed...

LOL I am finding this thread more enjoyable than some others.

[MC240]

Hey as long as anyone with an opposing view to mine doesn't hold a grudge for more that 10 years I can live with that..

[bruce108]

One of my teaching exercises was this. Form pairs. As talk for 60 secs, Bs listen. Bs then ask questions until they're certain that they've understood and As agree. Swap roles.

Recommended with the young. You'd be surprised how hard many find it.

@Prof: it's very Australian. Elsewhere I find people more capable of detachment. Hey, you could blame democracy . . .

[houdinifangs]

Trev, you still got me tripping on the discrete nature of the universe.

[Paul Spencer]

Trevor,

Human nature is the issue. It's a tendency we all have towards forming a view then fortifying it, accepting automatically that which confirms, rejecting automatically that which challenges. It's very much against the grain to be or think differently. Imagine for a minute if we weren't like that. If everything were left open and undecided. How do we know that we aren't going to float off into space? How do we know air will fill our lungs in our next breath? Not having to re-evaluate things is a necessary part of surviving. It all sounds extreme, can't we still be open minded? Well, it doesn't seem to work that way. The same mechanisms necessary for our survival persist even where they don't ideally serve us to learn. So we are by nature insulated from new ideas by the existing ones we hold true.

To be truly open minded is to work against human nature. Who was it that said "It's the sign of an educated mind, to entertain an idea without necessarily accepting it." I find that kind of thinking is very rare.

I'm definitely a thinker ... I enjoy thinking, entertaining ideas that I don't agree with, sometimes exploring them as if they were true. But invariably those ideas get rejected fairly quickly still and I find that familiar tendency still kicks in. Deep down I don't want to embrace those contrary ideas, I want them to be wrong. Any honest person will admit the same thing. In audio this manifests itself in different schools of thought, we get into our little groups. It's eaiser that way, much easier.

Couple of examples. One camp is very rational and tends to believe in measurements, blind tests, speakers and the room being the big issues with a lot more emphasis on room treatment than cables. I'm in this camp. We don't get too excited about swapping components or sighted comparisons of DACs. We don't bother trying out different cables too much. We are most likely to hang out with those that are like minded. The objectivist camp.

Another camp tends to question the value of measurements, it's all subjective! They are pretty much the polar opposite in emphasis. Swapping components, trying different DACs and cables, cooking up their audio system like a chef cooks a meal. They also tend to question blind testing and tend to see every single thing in the signal chain as very important. They also like hanging out with those that are like minded. The subjectivist camp.

In reality the lines aren't always that clearly marked. Shades of grey and all.

So what happens when they get mixed together? Well, the subjectivists get annoyed at the suggestion they should do rigorous blind testing, that their opinions aren't otherwise valid. I can see how that would be annoying. And us objectivists get annoyed at the ridiculous strawman arguments that get fired around about measurements. If measurements don't fix the kitchen sink, they must be flawed and a waste of time. But perhaps the worst thing of all is an underlying attitude, and this exists in both camps - it's the sentiment that "I'm superior to you." That is when differences become problems.

So what do we do? We form an idea and fortify it. We then "hang out" with likeminded people that further confirm our views. We become even more entrenched. Add to this an attitude of superiority and the battle begins.

Last year I made a trip to hear Steven Valve's system. For me it was about experiencing a system reputed to represent the epitome of the polar opposite approach to my own. A little bit of audio tourism. The craziness that followed illustrated all kinds of interesting aspects of human nature!

[Whatmore]

Paul, as always your response is measured and well thought out.
I just find it depressing to extrapolate the bickering on this forum (which after all is about stuff that is not terribly important in the scheme of things) to larger issues. No wonder the world is in such a mess.

I went to uni with a guy who once said :"I love arguing. I love it best when I lose, because then I've learnt something".
I like this notion a lot

[Drizt]

I haven't heard that said before but it makes a lot of sense Trev.

[Grumpy]

I don't bicker
I also don't listen like I should
And I'm old fashioned, not timely at all!
BUT i like learning.
Think I've got it covered.-No?

[Drizt]

Do you follow the real Magpies yet Grumps? (Collingwood that is)

[mikey d]

I think that when you get a bunch of blokes together & they all agree with each other, the conversation wanes very quickly. I hope to find someone who disagrees with me & calls me a w***ker.

[Bear72]

I think that when you get a bunch of blokes together & they all agree with each other, the conversation wanes very quickly. I hope to find someone who disagrees with me & calls me a w***ker.

Blokes who agree have great conversations, you wanker.

[Monkeyboi]

I agree with the Trev. Some threads have degenerated in to a p***ing contest. Sure, some comments are definitely technically incorrect (well, as technically as we currently know the state of the art), and IMHO it isn't politcally incorrect to correct such misinformation in a polite and informative manner. However many aspects of audio and many other non-audio topics discussed on this forum are subjective opinions (hey just like this one!), and we need to respect the POV of others, even if we stongly disagree with them. So to voice a counter opinion with some degree of credibility one needs to try to remain unemotional (I know that's a hard thing to do) and attempt to articulate one's POV in a polite, civil and unpatronising manner.

IME jumping down someone's throat and ripping their head off acheives nothing but the distain of others. In cyberspace it's easy to mud sling from behind the safety of your keyboard and monitor. As a tip to good online etiquette perhaps we should be composing our replies as if we were having a face to face discussion. I have learnt that this approach seems to work for me. Perhaps it might work for others too?

Cheers,
Alan R.

Edited by Alan Rutlidge, 03 March 2012 - 06:01 PM.

[ehtcom]

I don't like change!

[LogicprObe]

I don't like change!

Those undies must be getting a bit uncomfortable by now.

[Drizt]

Lol, thanks for the visuals.

[LogicprObe]

Lol, thanks for the visuals.

Lucky we haven't got Smellovision!

[JohnA]

sorry, did someone say something??????????

[mikey d]

Blokes who agree have great conversations, you wanker.

Exactly.....cheers!

[Drizt]

Lucky we haven't got Smellovision!

lol.... eewwww

[ehtcom]

Those undies must be getting a bit uncomfortable by now.

Except undies of course. I make sure I change them at least once a month. Otherwise they do get a bit crusty.

[Super Mustud]

Whatty. I want you to know that I am listening to you.

I care. I feel your pain.

I know how to make you better.

[Bear72]

I know how to make you better.

Oh. Er.





*exits room*

[Drizt]

I know how to make you better.

Ekk, awkward.

[Super Mustud]

Uncle Mustud will take all the troubles away.

[ehtcom]

Uncle Mustud? or uncle Ernie?

[Super Mustud]

Just take these tablets. Everything will be fine.

[Bear72]

Uncle Mustud? or uncle Ernie?

Ernie? Didn't he drive the fastest milk cart in the West?

[ehtcom]

Ernie? Didn't he drive the fastest milk cart in the West?

[Jake]

Ernie? Didn't he drive the fastest milk cart in the West?

Ahhh, those were the days.

[datafone]

Yeah, but i don't think it was milk he was peddling.

[Super Mustud]

I can serve the tablets with latte.

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•  Ernie.jpg   13.29K   116 downloads

[proftournesol]

So what happens when they get mixed together? Well, the subjectivists get annoyed at the suggestion they should do rigorous blind testing, that their opinions aren't otherwise valid. I can see how that would be annoying. And us objectivists get annoyed at the ridiculous strawman arguments that get fired around about measurements. If measurements don't fix the kitchen sink, they must be flawed and a waste of time. But perhaps the worst thing of all is an underlying attitude, and this exists in both camps - it's the sentiment that "I'm superior to you." That is when differences become problems.

It's even more depressing than that because even when some suggest that both are important and have their place there are still extremists of either position that deny that possibility as well:(

[Bear72]

Ernie? Didn't he drive the fastest milk cart in the West?

I can serve the tablets with latte.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]41874[/ATTACH]

Winner!!!!

[Whatmore]

Whatty. I want you to know that I am listening to you.

I care. I feel your pain.

I know how to make you better.

Thanks SM, I knew you'd understand