227 replies to this topic

[bhobba]

Hi Guys

It had to happen. A fellow SNA'er popped around with his $17K Playback Designs DAC and SACD player for a comparison against my PDX. Yep - its as least as good as the PDX - well above the Metrum. I thought it was about a tie against my PDX - the PDX was harmonically richer but the Playback designs was clean, clear, pure and open. The guy that bought it over thought the Playback Designs was clearly better and I am not sure if I listened longer I would not end up agreeing with him.

Because of that I looked a bit more into the DAC and found it evidently can do 24bit 384k via usb but we could only get it to work 44.1k. However fed it via my Off-Ramp up-sampled to 192k and to my ears was clearly better than its internal USB.

What can I say - this is one fine DAC.

Thanks
Bill

[DoggieHowser]

Sweet DAC!

I want one.

[bhobba]

Sweet DAC! I want one.

Yes - it really is that good. If you can afford it a must listen.

Thanks
Bill

[DoggieHowser]

I borrowed Jeff's a while back but his didn't have the USB X box.

Where the USB X box really shines is with the DSD over USB support

[bhobba]

I borrowed Jeff's a while back but his didn't have the USB X box. Where the USB X box really shines is with the DSD over USB support

It's really hard to get it out of my mind - it's just so clear and pure - and with the ability to handle DSD and 384 - my my. I may just have to get one - it won't be the MPD-5 - it will be the MPD-3 - I contacted Jeff (yea it was the same one you heard) and he knows the importer and thinks he can get me one to check out. Watch out for that shootout.

Thanks
Bill

[DoggieHowser]

Let's plan another shootout. I'll bring the DAC3.5VB MkII

It actually sounds quite good out of the box.

Edited by DoggieHowser, 26 February 2012 - 12:01 AM.

[David.M]

Hi Guys

It had to happen. A fellow SNA'er popped around with his $17K Playback Designs DAC and SACD player for a comparison against my PDX. Yep - its as least as good as the PDX - well above the Metrum. I thought it was about a tie against my PDX - the PDX was harmonically richer but the Playback designs was clean, clear, pure and open. The guy that bought it over thought the Playback Designs was clearly better and I am not sure if I listened longer I would not end up agreeing with him.

Because of that I looked a bit more into the DAC and found it evidently can do 24bit 384k via usb but we could only get it to work 44.1k. However fed it via my Off-Ramp up-sampled to 192k and to my ears was clearly better than its internal USB.

What can I say - this is one fine DAC.

Thanks
Bill

You need the separate Playback USB X-box (connected via Playlink) to hear anything above 48k via USB. I bought my player prior to release of the X-box & haven't added it as yet, don't use USB. I have a few DVDAs 24/96 & 192 I send in via optical from an Oppo 93 & am very happy with their sound, as I am with SACD and plain rebook (the real strength of the DAC IMO). The importer/distributor is one of our sponsors, Pure Music Group.

[bhobba]

You need the separate Playback USB X-box (connected via Playlink) to hear anything above 48k via USB. I bought my player prior to release of the X-box & haven't added it as yet, don't use USB. I have a few DVDAs 24/96 & 192 I send in via optical from an Oppo 93 & am very happy with their sound, as I am with SACD and plain rebook (the real strength of the DAC IMO). The importer/distributor is one of our sponsors, Pure Music Group.

The new one evidently has the 384 and DSD built in. Anyway I hope to get one to try out to see exactly what the go is.

Thanks
Bill

[David.M]

The new one evidently has the 384 and DSD built in. Anyway I hope to get one to try out to see exactly what the go is.

Thanks
Bill

I think the 3 series have it built in but with the 5 series it is definitely a separate, though small, box which connects to the DAC via the Playlink input. As well as 384 & DSD they do 2 x DSD also.

[DoggieHowser]

You need the separate Playback USB X-box (connected via Playlink) to hear anything above 48k via USB. I bought my player prior to release of the X-box & haven't added it as yet, don't use USB. I have a few DVDAs 24/96 & 192 I send in via optical from an Oppo 93 & am very happy with their sound, as I am with SACD and plain rebook (the real strength of the DAC IMO). The importer/distributor is one of our sponsors, Pure Music Group.

I am doing the same thing with my Oppo 95 with DVDAs via Toslink to the EMM Labs XDS1.

The MPS series is designed by Koch and he was one of the guys working on DSD tech alongside Meitner (of EMM Labs)

I have tried both the XDS1 and the MPS5 and they are very similar. I might be partial to the MPS5 especially with the USBX box.

[DoggieHowser]

I think the 3 series have it built in but with the 5 series it is definitely a separate, though small, box which connects to the DAC via the Playlink input. As well as 384 & DSD they do 2 x DSD also.

Using a "VGA" cable I know more than one reviewer made a dig about that

[bhobba]

Jeff just got back to me and I will be getting one to check out with a 6-7 week time frame.

Like I said it is at least as good as my PDX but a bit different not being as harmonically rich but very pure and clean - nice having a choice depending on mood etc.

Thanks
Bill

[dalamii]

I had now the PDX level2 with Duenland Arrived, just a quick listen last night on some songs. Huge different to the standard PDX i heard before. Impressive sounds from the PDX level 2. Look like MPS is a must hear DAC, I almost want to order one MPS 3 DAC before but was flying oversea. Let us know how it go Bill.

[David.M]

I am doing the same thing with my Oppo 95 with DVDAs via Toslink to the EMM Labs XDS1.

The MPS series is designed by Koch and he was one of the guys working on DSD tech alongside Meitner (of EMM Labs)

I have tried both the XDS1 and the MPS5 and they are very similar. I might be partial to the MPS5 especially with the USBX box.

I also use the Oppo transport for HDCD, Oppo support advised me their players decode HDCD prior to the digital out stage. I've not really put any effort to evaluating what, if any difference there is between using the internal esoteric transport vs Oppo decoded signal, and then there is the issue of how the mastering engineer implements HDCD particular to each disc. My Joni Mitchell discs are very nice as is The Last Waltz 4 disc boxset.

[Whatmore]

Playback designs is the best DAC I have heard. Simply superb.

[bhobba]

I had now the PDX level2 with Duenland Arrived, just a quick listen last night on some songs. Huge different to the standard PDX i heard before. Impressive sounds from the PDX level 2. Look like MPS is a must hear DAC, I almost want to order one MPS 3 DAC before but was flying oversea. Let us know how it go Bill.

Yes to both your comments about the PDX and Playback Designs. But to really get to the bottom of it I will be holding some shootouts at my place and Jeff the guy who bought the Playback designs over said he will be happy to have one over at his place as well. Looks like we are in for some interesting times.

Thanks
Bill

[bhobba]

Playback designs is the best DAC I have heard. Simply superb.

A few have commented on me not having some more up-market DAC's to compare to my cadre of DAC's. Well cost is one issue and since I fork out my own dosh to do this its a far from trivial issue. But to be blunt I have heard more expensive DAC's like the Bryston and Wiess 202 and they simply do not cut the mustard IMHO. I know others that have compared some of the DAC's I have to highly touted DAC's such as the Lampizator and the Perfectwave that some people have been bugging me to try - what they said was not encouraging - DAC's I already have bested them - at least encouraging enough to fork out for it. This is the first DAC in that sort of price range I have heard (or heard about) that made me want to get one. It is that good.

Thanks
Bill

Edited by bhobba, 26 February 2012 - 11:41 AM.

[bhobba]

Let's plan another shootout. I'll bring the DAC3.5VB MkII

It actually sounds quite good out of the box.

Of course - and its on both at my place and Jeff's. When it finally arrives will be doing some posts to have others over to check it out as well.

Thanks
Bill

Edited by bhobba, 26 February 2012 - 12:17 PM.

[Willco]

Yoh,

Manny Pacquiao is the PACMAN

Our Bhobba is the DACMAN

Go Bill!

Willco

[bhobba]

Yoh,

Manny Pacquiao is the PACMAN

Our Bhobba is the DACMAN

Go Bill!

Willco

He he he - evil look - gee its fun despite a quickly shrinking wallet.

But don't forget JD as well.

Thanks
Bill

[DoggieHowser]

I have my qualms with paying loads of money for DACs that use standard off the shelf components. But EMM PD and dCS all build their own custom DAC chips and as I'm a fan of SACDs and DSD, the premise of a native DSD DAC design just appeals to me.

[jrisles]

Hehe ... gotta love this hobby. Admittedly i wasn't entirely sure how the PBD was going to stack up against Bill's PDX DAC. As i was over the week before to have a listen to the Metrum, the Tranquility and the Empirical Audio Off Ramp as well as the PDX given that the PDX was Bill's reference. I didn't take the Playback Design with me last week but thought i would bring it over this week so that Bill (& I) could have a listen against his PDX.

Bill did post my thoughts (as they were aligned to Bill's) on the Metrum thread about the differences between the Metrum, Tranquility. John Kenny and the PDX. Bill was also so kind to loan me the Tranquility, Metrum and Off Ramp to listen to in my own system. I will post these views in the Metrum thread soon.

I have also placed an order for the USB-X Box and will get that about the same time Bill gets his DAC. The DAC only version of the MPS-5 is $13k called the MPD-5 ... although i chose to get the MPS-5 to give me the versatility in an ever changing marketplace. I told myself just to fork out the $$ and be done with it. It is a fantastic Redbook CD Player and an awesome SACD Player. The MPS-5 & MPD-5 share the same DAC as does the MPS-3 & MPD-3 with the only difference between the two models in each series is one has the transport and the other does not. Oh and the MPS/D=3 Series has the USB-X capability built into the player whereas the "5 Series" players do not.

I have heard the MPD-3 and you get alot of the MPS/D-5 for a fraction of the cost of the MPD-5. The MPD-3 is literally half the cost of the MPD-5!!!

Look forward to when these devices arrive and i will send out a call (as will Bill no doubt) to anyone who might be interested in coming over to listen to each of these DAC's.

[LenehanAudio]

Hehe ... gotta love this hobby. Admittedly i wasn't entirely sure how the PBD was going to stack up against Bill's PDX DAC. As i was over the week before to have a listen to the Metrum, the Tranquility and the Empirical Audio Off Ramp as well as the PDX given that the PDX was Bill's reference. I didn't take the Playback Design with me last week but thought i would bring it over this week so that Bill (& I) could have a listen against his PDX.

Bill did post my thoughts (as they were aligned to Bill's) on the Metrum thread about the differences between the Metrum, Tranquility. John Kenny and the PDX. Bill was also so kind to loan me the Tranquility, Metrum and Off Ramp to listen to in my own system. I will post these views in the Metrum thread soon.

I have also placed an order for the USB-X Box and will get that about the same time Bill gets his DAC. The DAC only version of the MPS-5 is $13k called the MPD-5 ... although i chose to get the MPS-5 to give me the versatility in an ever changing marketplace. I told myself just to fork out the $$ and be done with it. It is a fantastic Redbook CD Player and an awesome SACD Player. The MPS-5 & MPD-5 share the same DAC as does the MPS-3 & MPD-3 with the only difference between the two models in each series is one has the transport and the other does not. Oh and the MPS/D=3 Series has the USB-X capability built into the player whereas the "5 Series" players do not.

I have heard the MPD-3 and you get alot of the MPS/D-5 for a fraction of the cost of the MPD-5. The MPD-3 is literally half the cost of the MPD-5!!!

Look forward to when these devices arrive and i will send out a call (as will Bill no doubt) to anyone who might be interested in coming over to listen to each of these DAC's.

Hi jrisles am dying to hear this DAC of course and will readily accept defeat if required ! I'm hoping Bills PDX has 400hours up. If it is beaten I can assure you it will only make us go harder. Tube rolling of course is the immediate response to either enhance the warmth coolness quotient ! whoops , or should I say invoke the musicality accuracy knob.
This is definately what the highend is all about. I'm dying to hear something that runs with the PDX Level2 !!!! or maybe Heaven forbid knocks it off it's perch.
Best Regards Mike Lenehan
LenehanAudio

[onthebeach]

Hi Bill. Have you any idea how the Audio gd dacs fit in with your ranking system? I'm asking as a fellow SNAer who came around for a listen to the PDX tells me good things are mentioned in regards to the Audio gds in various forums. I apologise if you have posted elsewhere about any experiences with the Audio gd and I've missed it.
Nathan

[bee200sx]

Hi Bill. Have you any idea how the Audio gd dacs fit in with your ranking system? I'm asking as a fellow SNAer who came around for a listen to the PDX tells me good things are mentioned in regards to the Audio gds in various forums. I apologise if you have posted elsewhere about any experiences with the Audio gd and I've missed it.
Nathan

We did a very quick comparison with the NFB 3.1 at Bill's place and I am afraid it just doesn't stack up against the metrum or PDX. I would however like to know too how the Audio GD Ref 7.1 or Ref 5 using the PCM1704Uk chips stack up against these more expensive DACS given it is pricier. Sorry bill if we're going off the topic.

[bhobba]

Hi Bill. Have you any idea how the Audio gd dacs fit in with your ranking system? I'm asking as a fellow SNAer who came around for a listen to the PDX tells me good things are mentioned in regards to the Audio gds in various forums. I apologise if you have posted elsewhere about any experiences with the Audio gd and I've missed it

Bee200sx made the correct call on the NFB 3.1 - and the Off-Ramp for some reason didn't seem to make a big difference - you could clearly hear when it was used but it wasn't as pronounced as with the other DAC's. I have heard the Ref 5 and preferred the PDX and Metrum - they had greater speed to my ears. I have not heard the Ref 7.

Thanks
Bill

[Zammo]

How about the MSB range of DACS. Any of you guys heard them in comparison?

[kdoot]

There's not a whole lot of detailed information online about the Playback Designs products, but what's there is extremely interesting. Can I please join in a listening session sometime?

Zammo: have heard some of the MSB stuff. My first impression some time ago was not favourable, but more recently I heard what is said to be the same unit now with many more hours on it and an updated firmware (one of the strengths of the MSB approach is its field-upgradable nature). This time around it put on an impressive performance albeit with a technical glitch that allegedly hampered it quite a bit. The sound was authoritative, with all the hallmarks of excellent power supply and transparent output stages. If you've got that kind of money, they're worth having a listen to.

[bhobba]

How about the MSB range of DACS. Any of you guys heard them in comparison?

Owned an MSB Link DAC about 10 years ago - not good - not good at all - its bass was wrong - way wrong. I have heard their more upmarket stuff recently and that issue has been fixed but is not my cup of tea - it was better than my WFS - but would want to be for the price. My opinion is its a personal preference sort of thing - if you are interested in it see if you can wrangle some kind of demo. Indeed one of their DAC's, I forget which one, vies with the likes of DCS as the best DAC on the planet but, like the DCS etc, opinion varies on its sound.

Thanks
Bill

Edited by bhobba, 28 February 2012 - 11:10 AM.

[bhobba]

There's not a whole lot of detailed information online about the Playback Designs products, but what's there is extremely interesting. Can I please join in a listening session sometime?

Of course you can. A number of prople have contacted me about hearing it - including Mike and you are more than welcome at any one of those sessions of which I am sure there will be a few.

Anyone else is welcome as well and I will be happy to send it down to JD for review but from past discussions it may be outside the price range he is interested in reviewing stuff.

Thanks
Bill

Edited by bhobba, 28 February 2012 - 11:05 AM.

[DoggieHowser]

Bill which Playback are you buying? The MPD3 or 5?

[bhobba]

Bill which Playback are you buying? The MPD3 or 5?

MPD-3. Jeff has the 5 so we can have a real good comparison. Sorry - but didn't want to spend $17K and the scuttlebutt is its pretty close anyway - but of course we will find out.

Thanks
Bill

[Nikola krivorov]

Oh, how I wish I could be there... But I am half way around the Globe... The Playback Designs stuff is the most intersting thing to happen in years, apart from the Light harmonic DaVinci DAC that has everything I could dream about - Nos like the Metrum, 32/384, USB... If someone can make that shoot out happen I am ready to travel for two days anywhere on the planet

[Willco]

How about the MSB range of DACS. Any of you guys heard them in comparison?

Yoh Z,

I've heard the PLaybacks on 3 Occasions and with Evolution Acoustics/Dartzeel setups and it has been superb--which is more than I can say for the MSB stuff--it's just too clinical and brittle--maybe too much of a good thing-which annoys on extended listening-- Heavens I went back to the room I pictured twice to see if I was mistaken in my opinion of the apparent harshness from the Harbeths--and one things for sure Harbeths showed the fatiguing quality of the front end.

Sorry Vince your products get the thumbs down in my book.

YVMV

Willco

[Proac]

you know you are in trouble when Harbeth's fatigue.....

[alistairm]

you know you are in trouble when Harbeth's fatigue.....

Darned straight.

[bhobba]

Darned straight.

What no Lebens - sacrilege I say - sacrilege.

Thanks
Bill

[Audiomarketplace]

Hi Will,

I agree, the modified Harbeth’s would not be my choice either for pairing with the MSB gear, particularly from an aesthetic point of view (but of course that is up to personal taste) :-)

That pic you posted looks like it was from the MSB room at CES 2011? I believe MSB ran with Harbeths at shows for a number of years, I did ask them once why exactly that was and they surprisingly answered that "it worked well for them" because people were shocked at the shows how good their MSB front end made relatively "inexpensive and average speakers" sound. I think they have moved onto bigger and better things though, did you get a chance to visit them again at CES this year? They ran with YG Acoustics and got some very favorable comments in the media as well as winning best sounding room in the Volent room with a full MSB front end. (http://stereotimes.com/CES2012j.shtml)

I think also that CES2011 was the first show they released the Universal Media Transport (UMT). They soon after brought out a pro-I2S add-on card for the DAC4 which isolates ground noise and removes hashness. This is really a "fix" for the UMT so make of that what you will, but I have one in my system here now and it makes a big difference. I used to think the DATA4 player was a better transport than the UMT, but now running with the ground isolated input board I can't tell the difference. There are also some recent firmware updates that I've applied which IMHO made a nice improvement also.

Anyway, not making excuses Will, I just wanted to say that perhaps it's time to come over for a listen to the refined product and see if your opinion changes like it did for others ? You're welcome to come for a listen and you have an open invite, as you know.

Bill, sorry to take your thread a little off topic. At least we're still on the topic of DAC's though, and I am sure you will agree with your experience in DACs and connection methods that ground noise can play a big part.

Cheers,

Anthony

[rab]

Keith_W had one of the playback designs sacd players when i visited him after the Melbourne audio show. His system was very impressive and produced the best orchestral reproduction i have ever heard.

As much as i love my Level 2 PDX, surely the playback designs should be substantially better at $17k!?

[Whatmore]

Nothing is better than the PDX. Didn't you know that

[jrisles]

Keith_W had one of the playback designs sacd players when i visited him after the Melbourne audio show. His system was very impressive and produced the best orchestral reproduction i have ever heard.

As much as i love my Level 2 PDX, surely the playback designs should be substantially better at $17k!?

It is not a $17k comparison given that the PDX does not have a built in transport the comparison is with a $13K DAC (MPD-5) or a $6.5K DAC (MPD-3) as the case maybe. And yes you would expect it to be better .. not too sure how one qualifies "substantially". In this game and every other .. it is never a linear translation.

Incremental improvements do come at a pretty big cost.

[rab]

Nothing is better than the PDX. Didn't you know that

Silly me, i forgot. Too much time away from SNA.

It is not a $17k comparison given that the PDX does not have a built in transport the comparison is with a $13K DAC (MPD-5) or a $6.5K DAC (MPD-3)

Ah, good point, i was overlooking that, but still...

not too sure how one qualifies "substantially". Incremental improvements do come at a pretty big cost.

That is true, but even $6.5k is a lotta moola, and certainly beyond my means...

[LenehanAudio]

Keith_W had one of the playback designs sacd players when i visited him after the Melbourne audio show. His system was very impressive and produced the best orchestral reproduction i have ever heard.

As much as i love my Level 2 PDX, surely the playback designs should be substantially better at $17k!?

Hi Rab cant wait to get that DAC at my factory for a decent controlled run against the PDX. My bet is on the PDX simple as that ! but I wouldn't be surprised if we got whipped I'm not going to be cocky about this cause I could have egg on my face.
To keep us all honest I've invited Kdoot,Rawl99,Bhobba,Doggiehowser and any other member that wishes to be here. One caveat though for any member that wishes to attend ,there will be no talking at all when music is playing ! absolutely not a whisper, this will NOT be a social event. Four people only can listen at once.
We may also have an AMR DP-777 on hand for comparison as well.
I believe March the 9th was being considered but I will be at the Sydney Audio Society on the 11th so wont be able to be here. I'm thinking maybe the weekend after if jriles is available ?
There's no doubt that digital audio is getting exciting and starting to sound incredibly good ! I'm getting a bit nervous so I'm ordering in a pair of Amperex 7308's as a backup ! yikes. Regards Mike Lenehan LenehanAudio

[O.Sydney]

I believe March the 9th was being considered but I will be at the Sydney Audio Society on the 11th so wont be able to be here. ...

is that the http://www.sydneyaudioclub.org.au/ or the Society club meet ?

[LenehanAudio]

is that the http://www.sydneyaudioclub.org.au/ or the Society club meet ?

Sorry O.Sydney that was a typeO it's the sydneyaudioclub Regards Mike Lenehan