120 replies to this topic

[E.Man]

I think I read on the Foobar site "all music playing programs sound the same".
Having recently had reason to start trying a couple out I'm wondering 'do they' ? Or have people found some sound better.
I'm thinking of the common ones in particular such as MediaMonkey, Foobar, ASIO4ALL, VLC, Windows Media Player, Realplayer, WinAmp, Winrar, ... whatever, there must be others.

[DoggieHowser]

Try JPlay. I found it made a big difference in my setup. But it could be because my system is a generic one so it's used to do basic surfing/email/word processing duties. Jplay in hibernation mode probably got rid of the junk

[Nada]

Do all music playing programs sound the same ?

Unlikely.

[GregWormald]

Certainly they don't on my Macs. Most seem to have trial periods, so give them a go and pick the one you like best.

Greg

[peacewise]

Nope. 10 char.

[datafone]

"Do all music playing programs sound the same ?"

In my experience they sound different to one another, the differences vary and are bigger or smaller... depending on those being compared.

[a.dent]

"Do all music playing programs sound the same ?"

Some sound similar. Some sound very different. None that I have heard sound exactly the same.

[surfpurple]

I would like to know 'how much' do these music programs differ from each other (in terms of sound)?

[LogicprObe]

I would like to know 'how much' do these music programs differ from each other (in terms of sound)?

Maybe we need a poll?

[surfpurple]

Maybe we need a poll?

Yeh, but I would like to know some 'facts' about these programs. I mean, I play my music through 'MediaMonkey' and can't hear any difference to other 'players'.

What exactly are the differences? And can we all hear them or only on 'hi-end' revealling systems?

(p.s. LP, I am going for '400' posts!)

[DoggieHowser]

TAS March 2012: Computer Music Audio Quality Part 4:
PS Audio PWT/PWD -100 (reference)

Playback of CD using Samsung optical drive with JRMC real time up sampling to 32/192, coax output to PWD

WASAPI drivers (80) > ASIO4ALL (70) > regular WAV out (60)

Power Cord upgraded to PS Audio Statement to APC UPS (115)

Added granite shelf + Goldmund Cones on computer (130)

Ripping CD to WAV on external HDD using standard power cord to HDD power supply (110)

Ripping CD to WAV on internal HDD (130)

Replaced power cord to PS Audio to external HDD power supply (140)


Statement PC replaced to PS Audio AC12 +25
Removed all unnecessary peripherals (mostly USB) +25
Replaced homemade power cables (Kimber 8TS) with AC12 to preamp and DAC +25

Up till this point PC was 20 feet away (with different power source and long SPDIF coax)
PC moved to same power source as preamp (Maugham Isolation Transformer + AC12 cable on preamp/DAC) +20
Replaced long coax with 0.75m Kimber KS2020 digital cable +15
Presampled to 32/192 +10 to +15

[surfpurple]

Please excuse my ignorance, but I aren't up to speed with these 'scores'!

I don't know how they are tested and who does the testing, etc.

This may not be the thread for this but if someone can shine some light for me I would be grateful.

[E.Man]

I don't know what all those 'scores' are either.
OK, it seems "No" is the answer.
Impressions of the sound delivered might be interesting to hear.
I'm having a hard enough time trying to install 'Output plug-ins' etc to go through them all. Dicking about on the computer just gets frustrating.
For example, how do I listen to Foobar thru ASIO4ALL ?

[DoggieHowser]

They used PWT PWD as a reference 100.

You can read this and the last four issues of The Absolute Sound.

[datafone]

I don't know what all those 'scores' are either.
OK, it seems "No" is the answer.
Impressions of the sound delivered might be interesting to hear.
I'm having a hard enough time trying to install 'Output plug-ins' etc to go through them all. Dicking about on the computer just gets frustrating.
For example, how do I listen to Foobar thru ASIO4ALL ?

I just run foobar with the Wasapi plugin under Win7.

Wasapi digital out at 16/44.1 with Dither enabled. This is in conjunction with the On-board Realtek sound via a Coax out. But that won't work with hi-res files of course, and I have to change it to 24bit for those files, and Wasapi won't work with 32bit files for me at all, not even when set to 32bit because my dac wont handle them

Edited by datafone, 18 February 2012 - 11:41 PM.

[lem]

I once used MediaMonkey, until I discovered JRiver. To me there was a clear difference in sound.

I have recently trialled JPlay. Sound was different but not better (or worse) than JRiver. For me it was not worth the purchase price.

[a.dent]

OK as an example of a clear and noticeable difference.

Playing a Redbook CD ripped to FLAC.

Clementine (free download but does not upsample) v BitPerfect ($5) upsampled to 176.4kHz and using maximum buffer size.

There is a clear difference.

However Audirvana Plus ($45 from memory) with the same settings and source is very similar to BitPerfect. Not the same, but similar.

Whether it is worth the extra for Audirvana Plus is obviously up to the individual but BitPerfect is certainly money well spent.

Andrew

[GregWormald]

I would like to know 'how much' do these music programs differ from each other (in terms of sound)?

It's going to be really hard to judge "how much difference" because there are *many* variables. It's also likely to result in a 'subjective-objective' bunfight.

For me, it was simple. Upgrading my software to get the 'difference' (that I saw as improvement) was worth the $45 it cost.

Greg

Edited by GregWormald, 19 February 2012 - 10:18 AM.

[cazzesman]

I'm a recent user/purchaser of JRiver Media Centre. I run my flac and wav files direct from my PC via toslink (bypassing the PC dacs) to the twin brown burr dacs in my Yamaha Amp. JRiver MC does instant upsampling of files to an assortment of HiRes formats before sending it down the toslink.

I have been extremely impressed with the sound quality and am seriously considering putting all my CD's onto the PC. JRiver takes abit of getting use to but the Forum style help site is brilliant for instant response to any problems. The folks who own, design and upgrade the software answer your questions directly.

Free 30 day full trial on the software made it an easy choice to try initially. The Reviews on google are all 100% positive. Not much JRMC can't or won't do. Costs nothing to check it out.

Regards Cazzesman

[a.dent]

As an addendum to my last post, and to add confusion.

BitPerfect will not feed my 96kHz (HDTracks) files cleanly to my Ref 5 (limited to 96kHz input) so I have to play them with Audirvana Plus. (it may be a setting problem but I don't think so). The Ref 5 does not like an upsampled source either.

The choice of player is not only to do with sound quality, but compatibility as well.

Edited by a.dent, 19 February 2012 - 10:21 AM.
clarification

[bhobba]

All players most definitely do not sound the same. There is a big difference between Audirvana and Itunes for example. Technically the reason is probably that Audirvana decodes and buffers tracks to memory before playing so there is less power draw and other stuff going on in the computer during playback. That however is just conjecture - I don't think anyone knows for sure.

Thanks
Bill

[DoggieHowser]

So if these players don't sound the same, are they producing bitperfect output then?

[RockandorRoll]

I would have thought that the only difference comes from the implementation of the ASIO devices running in the background. There is a clear difference between WMP and Foobar but only because Foobar using ASIO drivers to feed my Musiland

it seems crazy that the interface makes such a difference

[datafone]

R&R, welcome to the world of software ;D

I don't use asio drivers, in fact they don't interface with anything here...... Wasapi used here.Edit: I was wrong, can get asio4all working now, so now to work out what sounds better ASIO4ALL or WASAPI

Just downloaded JRiver, and while I like the sound, I don't like the bloat....what I mean is it does so much, yet I only need a player that plays files and allows me to browse via a folder tree.

For myself the rest is bloat, I am looking for a way to trim it back but it doesn't look like I can do this.

As far as the term "bitperfect" goes, it means little to me when I see it mentioned in any blurb

Edited by datafone, 19 February 2012 - 12:14 PM.

[surfpurple]

I'm a recent user/purchaser of JRiver Media Centre. I run my flac and wav files direct from my PC via toslink (bypassing the PC dacs) to the twin brown burr dacs in my Yamaha Amp. JRiver MC does instant upsampling of files to an assortment of HiRes formats before sending it down the toslink.

I have been extremely impressed with the sound quality and am seriously considering putting all my CD's onto the PC. JRiver takes abit of getting use to but the Forum style help site is brilliant for instant response to any problems. The folks who own, design and upgrade the software answer your questions directly.

Free 30 day full trial on the software made it an easy choice to try initially. The Reviews on google are all 100% positive. Not much JRMC can't or won't do. Costs nothing to check it out.

Regards Cazzesman

That's the same type of set-up that I am currently using (ALL files streamed from my PC to my Denon amp Dacs, via toslink).

It appears that it would be a good idea for me to trial (30 day free) JRiver and see how it compares to 'MediaMonkey'.

[surfpurple]

R&R, welcome to the world of software ;D

I don't use asio drivers, in fact they don't interface with anything here...... Wasapi used here.

Just downloaded JRiver, and while I like the sound, I don't like the bloat....what I mean is it does so much, yet I only need a player that plays files and allows me to browse via a folder tree.

For myself the rest is bloat, I am looking for a way to trim it back but it doesn't look like I can do this.

As far as the term "bitperfect" goes, it means little to me when I see it mentioned in any blurb

I ONLY use my 'player' to PLAY songs. I never use it for 'browsing' as such because no music player ever catagorizes my music the way I have it in my own folders. So I just browse through MY personal 'music' folder and just play through my player.

[datafone]

I can do it in JRiver selecting in the left pane Audio > file and in the imidiate right one indicated as Location > H drive >music (the name of the folder that has my album folders in it)

If you can connect with Coax rather than toslink, give it a try.

[cazzesman]

That's the same type of set-up that I am currently using (ALL files streamed from my PC to my Denon amp Dacs, via toslink).

It appears that it would be a good idea for me to trial (30 day free) JRiver and see how it compares to 'MediaMonkey'.

I think you will find a designer/programmer on JRMC is a creator of the 'Ape' lossless format. I presume 'Ape' has something to do with MediaMonkey. Is that correct?

Regards Cazzesman

Just done some research and it appears not connected.

Edited by cazzesman, 19 February 2012 - 03:54 PM.

[surfpurple]

I can do it in JRiver selecting in the left pane Audio > file and in the imidiate right one indicated as Location > H drive >music (the name of the folder that has my album folders in it)

If you can connect with Coax rather than toslink, give it a try.

What does the connection have to do with anything? If I connect with coax then I will be using the dac in my pc, as oppossed to toslink using my reciever dac.

[datafone]

So you don't have a digital coax connection on the receiver and PC.

It was just the if you had the option of both, the Coax would possibly give you a better result, that's all.

[cazzesman]

So you don't have a digital coax connection on the receiver and PC.

It was just the if you had the option of both, the Coax would possibly give you a better result, that's all.

I did my head in researching toslink vs coaxial on the net. It's like Holden vs Ford or MAC vs PC. 10 are for and 10 against. I ended up going with the toslink from PC to Amp simply because I had a 10 metre toslink at hand. My next upgrade will be a CIAudio Dac and PSU combo which has both digital inputs. In some email exchanges with Dusty Vawter at CIAudio, he didn't seem to think there would be any great difference between the toslink and coaxial in the PC-CIA DAC-Amp link.

[datafone]

Every time I have had the option to use either one, Coax was far superior, but that's just my limited experience.

Anyway, I have gone back to foobar after giving JRiver a try, It's funny as the sound of JRiver sounds more even with a better defined bass, but there was some life missing in the sound compared to foobar...for myself.

Edit:Foobar sounds more musical, and JRiver more lifeless, in my system and setup.

[LogicprObe]

Like most things, you get used to something then miss it when it's not there.

[surfpurple]

So you don't have a digital coax connection on the receiver and PC.

It was just the if you had the option of both, the Coax would possibly give you a better result, that's all.

Yes as I said, I have both connections available. And as I have said previously, I cannot really hear a difference between both, as I can't hear a difference between players or using other 'resources' whilst using any media players. I don't have a very 'revealing system so maybe that's why I can't differentiate very well.

Edited by surfpurple, 19 February 2012 - 06:24 PM.

[surfpurple]

I did my head in researching toslink vs coaxial on the net. It's like Holden vs Ford or MAC vs PC. 10 are for and 10 against. I ended up going with the toslink from PC to Amp simply because I had a 10 metre toslink at hand. My next upgrade will be a CIAudio Dac and PSU combo which has both digital inputs. In some email exchanges with Dusty Vawter at CIAudio, he didn't seem to think there would be any great difference between the toslink and coaxial in the PC-CIA DAC-Amp link.

I think you must try 'both' connections, as each system is different and one connection may work better than the other!

[E.Man]

I'll see if I can score a PC upgrade from my Bro in a few months and then at least have Win7/Wasapi as an option.
More RAM wouldn't hurt either.

[RockandorRoll]

If the designers of the program know there is no difference, who are we to argue that there is? Im not smart enough to understand the reasons behind it, but in theory and if we believe the hype with things like ASIO and WSAPI then it shouldnt make a lick of difference what playe ris used as long as it can control the ASIO device - yay or nay?

The only reason i use Foobar is because its not a resource hog like iTunes, its stripped back to basic. If there was a better looking player that was easy to use in terms of selecting the ASIO/WSAPI output device id be all over it.

[LogicprObe]

That's true.
All I want is a simple player that lets me organise my own files.
You would think that the simpler it is, the better it should sound.

[aleg]

That's true.
All I want is a simple player that lets me organise my own files.
You would think that the simpler it is, the better it should sound.

I think that's true and you know where to look for one ;-)

[datafone]

If the designers of the program know there is no difference, who are we to argue that there is? Im not smart enough to understand the reasons behind it, but in theory and if we believe the hype with things like ASIO and WSAPI then it shouldnt make a lick of difference what playe ris used as long as it can control the ASIO device - yay or nay?

The only reason i use Foobar is because its not a resource hog like iTunes, its stripped back to basic. If there was a better looking player that was easy to use in terms of selecting the ASIO/WSAPI output device id be all over it.

Designers have a vested interest in their products.
I listen for myself, and ignore hype ect' and decide for myself what I prefer and I what I think sounds better ;D

BTW, I notice you have a JVC QL-Y5F, nice TT

[datafone]

Like most things, you get used to something then miss it when it's not there.

The main thing I missed was a musical presentation, and a little of the ease of use......but mainly the more musicality.

[LogicprObe]

I think that's true and you know where to look for one ;-)

I know, I know.............but Jplay is not that simple!

[LogicprObe]

The main thing I missed was a musical presentation, and a little of the ease of use......but mainly the more musicality.

You think they have a valve emulation logarithm in there?

[surfpurple]

I'm having problems with installing JRiver. Says something about wanting 'Explorer' to be the browser? Keeps shutting down.

And what's with this ASIO/WSAPI ?

[datafone]

" valve emulation logarithm" lol now that would be at lest worth a try!

I really have no idea why foobar sounds more musical than Jriver on my system, I tweaked JRiver as much as I could with settings I found, played from mem' and tried both Wasapi and Asio4all drivers ect', Foobar playback via Wasapi just sounds noticeably more musical in my setup, as I don't have a asio specific card or device so asio is not an option under foobar for me.

Edited by datafone, 19 February 2012 - 08:52 PM.