37 replies to this topic

[emerson]

Hey guys i'm in the market for a new receiver and after much shopping and research its come down to 2 (maybe 3) models.

• Denon 4311
  
• Pioneer LX75
  
• Pioneer LX85 (if i can get for a white van price )

TBH i'm pretty sold on the Denon and all the reviews i've read on this have been amazing but the hifi store i might be buying it from has tried to talk me out of it (Although 2 other competitive hifi stores have told me this is AVR the bees knees).
The hifi store that has tried to talk me out of it said its a brilliant receiver but its just a little old in the tooth these days and the Pioneers are far more advanced in sound and features.
I love the apple connectivity of the Pioneers but not sure if that is just a gimmick.


It's probably a good thing to mention that i haven't had a listen to either amp yet but i'll be going in to the hifi store this wkend for a solid session.
I have heard the Denon 3312 and was really impressed with a few different speakers including the Paradigm monitors and studios.


I recently purchased a full set of Paradigm SE's and this is why i want to buy a new AVR, the drama is the hifi store that i'm visiting this wkend doesn't sell Paradigm anymore and the other 2 hifi stores i've spent some time in don't sell Pioneer (they can order them in but i can't listen to them first).


So i'm keen to hear others thoughts on the 3 AVR's, if anyone owns one of the above or has had personal experience i'd love to hear your pros and cons.



Cheers

[Lil Caesar]

OK - what matters most to you - DSP feature-set, or the build quality and amp circuitry ?

If sound quality and longevity of the device are a priority then the Denon leaves Pioneer for dead.

[emerson]

OK - what matters most to you - DSP feature-set, or the build quality and amp circuitry ?

If sound quality and longevity of the device are a priority then the Denon leaves Pioneer for dead.

Cool mate, thats exactly what i was thinking
So in your opinion you don't think the Denon is too old?

[:) al]

how is the denon 'too old' ? its a current model just got released in the last year. infact I'd go as far as say even denons from 3-4 years ago in the denon 3808 ad 4308 are very very good.

ps I wouldnt get too carried away by airplay or anything. a $129 apple tv will give you more functionality that can add to any avr

[DoggieHowser]

I like Denon's incorporation of DSX and updated MultiEQ XT32.

But it's internal power amps aren't as well implemented as the ICE modules in Pioneer's top AVRs. They don't deliver the rated power when all channels are driven.

If you are using external power amps to offload at least the front 2 channels, the Denon should be comparable. And that's where audyssey SubEQ and XT32 becomes a bigger factor.

[:) al]

doggie its always worth doing a reality check on the power claims of avrs

the pio lx75 here only has a max consumption of 370w which am sorry doesnt compare well with its ridiculously overblown power claim of 180w x 9 channels for that sort of claim it wold need at the very least if it was a 100% efficient amp with no headroom a max power consumption of 180x9 = 1620w a long way off the 370w its power supply can draw at most. which will equate to at best 370w / 9 = 41w per channel at a peak ! again assuming 100% effieciency and leaving nothing for headroom !

the denon has a max consumption of 780w a bit more than twice the pio lx75 but yeah still over blown vs the power claim of 140 x 9 which would need a power consumption of 1260 w at least. in real terms the denon more like 780 / 9 = 86 w per channel at absolute best if 100% effiecient and no headroom.

with either of these avrs as with most I'd say external power amps would be good additions

Edited by :) al, 15 February 2012 - 10:00 PM.

[DoggieHowser]

I haven't heard the LX75. But I did hear the LX83 which uses ICE modules and they are much more efficient. Also there's no single transformer which limits the power delivery. I believe the LX75 also uses ICE.

I have the Denon 4810 and I feel the LX83 sounds better until I got external power amps for the Denon

[:) al]

doggie a max power consumption as declared is max power consumption, you cant claim for an amp to be able to produce more power than its power consumption can consume and that doesnt matter what class the amp is. class A, A/B class D or H (bose ICE modeules). its the simple law of conservation of energy !

pioneer has always been ridiculous in their power claims always have been ever before they used class D ice amps. denon a bit better. but not by much hehe

one of the best things can do to improve on an avr is use an external amp i. In my experience. as you say even adding a 2ch amp is a good way to take some load of the power supply.

the lx83 is a little more conservatively rated 190w x 7 but still severely over specd vs a power consumption of only 330w. you will notice they even cheat with their power claims with quoting 6ohm and 1% thd and only at 1khz !

the denon 4810 has a consumption of 910w vs claims of 9x140w have heard it running a monitor audio gold series 7.1 set and Id say its much better amp stage than the 4311. the denons have beautifull pre amp stages and paired with an external power amp can be a lovely combo

[Lil Caesar]

Righto boys, take it easy. Back to the OPs' question though - The 4311's feature set is still current, so the only issue is pioneers' ice power modules over denons' class a/b amps.

Emerson - if you just want big dynamics for movies, the pioneer might have the edge, depending on your speakers. As doggie has pointed out the class d amps in the pioneer are more efficient and generally work very well in home theatre setups. The denon will probably sound better with straight music playback given the classic amp design.

I wouldn't worry too much about all the chatter regarding outsourcing channels to another amp unless you are running large difficult to drive speakers in a generously proportioned room. These avrs are a major step forward for most people and have sufficient power for all but the most ardent cinephiles.

[emerson]

how is the denon 'too old' ? its a current model just got released in the last year. infact I'd go as far as say even denons from 3-4 years ago in the denon 3808 ad 4308 are very very good.

ps I wouldnt get too carried away by airplay or anything. a $129 apple tv will give you more functionality that can add to any avr

From what i've heard and read (don't quote me because i'm not an expert) but the reason this was said was due to to Denon releasing a new amp in the lower (not made in Japan) amps eg. the 3312, 2312.
Denon didnt release an update for the 43 series (4312) due to the ongoing power issues in Japan. Denon as supposedly skipping the 4312 and releasing the 4313 toward the end of the year.
The guy at the hifi store said it was getting on now because it's missing some features that the newer amps now have, i believe the Pioneer LX75 and 85 were released in the 2nd half of 2011 and the Denon around a year before that.

I already have 2 Apple TV's but i really want the amp to do that too so i dont have to have the Apple TV's running all the time.

I like Denon's incorporation of DSX and updated MultiEQ XT32.

But it's internal power amps aren't as well implemented as the ICE modules in Pioneer's top AVRs. They don't deliver the rated power when all channels are driven.

If you are using external power amps to offload at least the front 2 channels, the Denon should be comparable. And that's where audyssey SubEQ and XT32 becomes a bigger factor.

I'd love to go down this path (external power amp) but unfortunately i dont have room in my entertainment unit and i dont have room for a rack.

Righto boys, take it easy. Back to the OPs' question though - The 4311's feature set is still current, so the only issue is pioneers' ice power modules over denons' class a/b amps.

Emerson - if you just want big dynamics for movies, the pioneer might have the edge, depending on your speakers. As doggie has pointed out the class d amps in the pioneer are more efficient and generally work very well in home theatre setups. The denon will probably sound better with straight music playback given the classic amp design.

I wouldn't worry too much about all the chatter regarding outsourcing channels to another amp unless you are running large difficult to drive speakers in a generously proportioned room. These avrs are a major step forward for most people and have sufficient power for all but the most ardent cinephiles.

I'm using a 5.1 set of Paradigm SE's, i don't believe that are that power hungry.
Thanks again for the advice Caeser

[Lil Caesar]

No probs, and you're right about the 4311 - still 100% made in Japan, and no doubt better for it

If AirPlay is that important to you then wait out for the supposed 4313.....

You could always go a onkyo or Yamaha which both already have AirPlay but like I said, very hard to beat Denon amp circuits and general build quality.

[DoggieHowser]

http://www.hometheat...t-labs-measures

Seven channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1 percent distortion at 30.9 watts
1 percent distortion at 36.0 watts (Protection Engages)

http://www.hometheat...t-labs-measures

Seven channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1% distortion at 109.6 watts
1% distortion at 123.7 watts

[Lil Caesar]

....point made doggie but just how many people have material that requires 7 channels to be driven simultaneously ?

Besides, the op has said he is running 5.1

[:) al]

From what i've heard and read (don't quote me because i'm not an expert) but the reason this was said was due to to Denon releasing a new amp in the lower (not made in Japan) amps eg. the 3312, 2312.
Denon didnt release an update for the 43 series (4312) due to the ongoing power issues in Japan. Denon as supposedly skipping the 4312 and releasing the 4313 toward the end of the year.
The guy at the hifi store said it was getting on now because it's missing some features that the newer amps now have, i believe the Pioneer LX75 and 85 were released in the 2nd half of 2011 and the Denon around a year before that.

~

emerson, I wouldnt swallow what the hifi store guy has said. there is nothing in the 3312 that brings anything new in tech over the 4311. in tech infact the 4311 is far and away advanced in the 3312. audyssey to name one as example.

~

I already have 2 Apple TV's but i really want the amp to do that too so i dont have to have the Apple TV's running all the time.

~

no probs, I have apple TVs myself, just be aware that airplay does not do all that an apple tv does. many people have got amps with airplay and ended up getting apple tvs anyway. airplay is a cut down version.

~

~

I'd love to go down this path (external power amp) but unfortunately i dont have room in my entertainment unit and i dont have room for a rack.

I'm using a 5.1 set of Paradigm SE's, i don't believe that are that power hungry.
Thanks again for the advice Caeser

I understand avrs like this are often a very good option as all in one units. if considering avrs of quality I would also throw the arcam 360 in the ring. it actually costs less than the denon and note it is very conservatively rated only 75w x 7 note its power consumption is 1500w ! compared to the 780w of the denon and 370w of the pioneer ! gives some indication of the power reserves of the arcam and the honest power ratings which I would say it will have no trouble in achieving

http://www.carltonau...=node/view/1634

http://www.claritybu...nes/DOC2-49.pdf

I'll agree to dissagree with some of the comments in this thread re the value of external amps. even with quite humble systems gains can be made. as has been my experience. and it isnt necessarily to do with whether speakers are demanding or not. but relate to the quality of the amplification in question. but that aside here as you are clearly looking for an avr. I'd suggest getting the best sounding avr can get hands on

[Lil Caesar]

Yeah good call al on the arcam 360 - ought to be rather interesting !

Looks good too

[DoggieHowser]

....point made doggie but just how many people have material that requires 7 channels to be driven simultaneously ?

Besides, the op has said he is running 5.1

True. But there's always the itch to upgrade.

Personally, I'd go with a Denon and get external power amps. But that's because I prefer to have Audyssey XT32 and DSX. Still waiting for an 11 channel NeoX implementation. Denon came closest with their upgrade of the A1HDC preamp but fell short of implementing a full 11 channels. Even though the A1 was a 12 channel design. Bummer.

I am still holding on to my 4810 because I think they had better DACs but nothing like the ones on the flagship. Maybe a 4813 or equivalent system this year...

[:) al]

http://www.hometheat...t-labs-measures

Seven channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1 percent distortion at 30.9 watts
1 percent distortion at 36.0 watts (Protection Engages)

http://www.hometheat...t-labs-measures

Seven channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1% distortion at 109.6 watts
1% distortion at 123.7 watts

they have quoted the power measurement for the denon 4810 at 5 channels driven
http://www.hometheat...t-labs-measures

HT Labs Measures
Five channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1 percent distortion at 123.5 watts
1 percent distortion at 148.2 watts

I should let you know hometheatre.com are not one to quote for power tests. they have always had screwy results on AVRs as far as time has gone. screwy results like the pioneer that is producing 763w all channels driven out of a 370w power supply. sorry but no amps have been designed as yet that defy laws of physics

what you will find is ht.com quote power figures into literally split seconds as they measure to clipping ie for the split second relying capacitor charge. hence their strange results at times. you dont want to be relying on power into clipping but instead real power supported by an adequately sized power supply

Edited by :) al, 16 February 2012 - 04:57 PM.

[:) al]

True. But there's always the itch to upgrade.

Personally, I'd go with a Denon and get external power amps. But that's because I prefer to have Audyssey XT32 and DSX. Still waiting for an 11 channel NeoX implementation. Denon came closest with their upgrade of the A1HDC preamp but fell short of implementing a full 11 channels. Even though the A1 was a 12 channel design. Bummer.

I am still holding on to my 4810 because I think they had better DACs but nothing like the ones on the flagship. Maybe a 4813 or equivalent system this year...

I own the denon avp-a1hd pre amp and it is a lovely item. have owned it since day one of release 4 years ago. I dont think they'll be making anything to replace it anytime soon It actually as a pre amp weighs more than my power amp ! a beautifull piece of engineering. the 12 channels relate to the multi sub ability on the avp. it can discretely handle upto 3 subs L&R and LFE. or 3 x LFE. I have just had mine upgraded through the service centre week before last for 3D hdmi v1.4 and audysey dsx xt32/pro and dts-neo x. It basically adds takes the 9.3 ability it had before with A+B side surrounds to 9.3 where the A+B side surrounds are re mapped side surroudns and either Front heights or wides as per audyssey DSX. so yeah its still a 12 ch design as always was

Edited by :) al, 16 February 2012 - 05:02 PM.

[:) al]

~

I am still holding on to my 4810 because I think they had better DACs but nothing like the ones on the flagship. Maybe a 4813 or equivalent system this year...

doggie and I do think good idea holding onto the 4810. where it is very good I think is in the pre amp and dacs. it uses a full discrete dac implementation. the flagships though more elaborate are similar in design. but yeah the 4311 is a much scaled down affair in the dacs using a cheaper multichannel dac on a chip.

[RockandorRoll]

Thats pretty decent power out of the Denon at 5 channels driven. I use mine for 2 channel, with nothing else connected so im guessing the power figure is even closer to the 140 watts specified (4308a)

Love the sound from my Denon, I know a lot of people think AVR's are rubbish for 2 channel music but i must admit, i reckon this beast performs better than my Bel Canto and NAD 355

I dont mind the sound of the ICE power in my Bel Canto and its efficiency is always a big plus, it just doesnt get hot, plus it uses stuff all power, i leave the thing going all day. Maybe thats a big positive to the Pioneer?

[:) al]

Hi R&R prior to my denon avp the 4308 was what I had and only have fond memories. a class unit. I know a few commented re good quality 2ch with the 4308 as well

ps yes cooler running can be an advantage of the class d topology amps. though there are exceptions, the rotel class D amps seem to be roasters as with the hk avrs when came out with ice modules still managed to be pretty warm runners

for the op, stephen dawson who posts on another forum has done a bit of a run down on quite a few avrs for cnet it would seem

http://www.cnet.com....0979.htm#image0

Edited by :) al, 16 February 2012 - 08:35 PM.

[emerson]

No probs, and you're right about the 4311 - still 100% made in Japan, and no doubt better for it

If AirPlay is that important to you then wait out for the supposed 4313.....

You could always go a onkyo or Yamaha which both already have AirPlay but like I said, very hard to beat Denon amp circuits and general build quality.

The 4311 does AirPlay but AFAIK its a paid add-on

no probs, I have apple TVs myself, just be aware that airplay does not do all that an apple tv does. many people have got amps with airplay and ended up getting apple tvs anyway. airplay is a cut down version.

The main reason i want AirPlay is to control zone 2 (patio) from my iDevices so i don't really need a fancy on screen display for the TV

for the op, stephen dawson who posts on another forum has done a bit of a run down on quite a few avrs for cnet it would seem

http://www.cnet.com....0979.htm#image0

Great, thanks Al

[Mika75]

Yamaha RX-A1010 Aventage - Review, Measurements & Analysis @ Audioholics

The Yamaha RX-A1010 handedly exceeded its 110wpc power rating continuously with two channels driven and put out a commendable 155wpc both channels driven into 4-ohms; and that’s a full power bandwidth measurement (20Hz to 20kHz at 0.1% THD + N). You can see the protection circuit kick on during our ACD tests, purposely limiting power to 70wpc for all seven channels driven. This means the RX-A1010 was dissipating nearly 980 watts from the wall outlet to deliver this much power to all seven channels. Not bad for a sub $1k receiver with a 600VA power supply.
In short time, there is no doubt in my mind forum trolls seeing the ACD power numbers for this receiver will pop up on our site or AVS Forum bashing Yamaha, not realizing the design purpose of power limiting a multi channel amplifier in a compact chassis, or the reality that real world program material will never trip this limiter circuitry. Thus we conducted dynamic burst power measurements simulating real world program content.

As an example, the Yamaha above has 470watts printed on the rear although it's able to pull double that from the wall.

note: Measurements from the Pre & Power section were excellent. (no subjective bias when using a $40k test machine)

Edited by Mika75, 18 February 2012 - 12:39 AM.

[:) al]

600VA is not a huge power supply for a power amp, not suprising yam have its protection kick in at 70wpc all channels driven which is 490w tops max output 7 channels driven. Its the main reason many have found benefit adding a power amp. a humble rotel 1075 power amp for instance has a 1500va power supply. which is more suited to its more humble 120w x 5 power claims.

http://www.internati...RMB1075_AVG.pdf

well regarded amp, can usually pick it up 2nd hand for well under $1k and as a power amp larger an heavier than any of the avrs being talked here !

[rocky500]

I think acording to the manual the Pioneer is 720W.

Insert from manual:
Audio Section
Multi channel simultaneous power output
(1 kHz, 1 %, 8 W )
9 ch total
................810 W (SC-LX85)/720 W (SC-LX75)

Edited by rocky500, 19 February 2012 - 04:16 PM.

[emerson]

Thanks for all the help guys, i went and had a listen yesterday and decided on the Denon.
Sounded much better IMO, so much deeper and fuller (if that makes sense), the Pioneer also sounded good but just a little thin and tinny compared to the Denon.

[perthpete]

good choice :-)

[:) al]

yes something be very happy wiht am pretty sure. definitely some charecter differences between the brands too. so good got the opportunity to demo between them to decide for yourself what sounds best to your ears. Congrats !

[DoggieHowser]

I too found my Denon more musical than my Onkyo. It wasn't a bad preamp either

[warren2503]

I found my denon 4308 a great improvement on my yamaha When I was using the amps in it . Now it's just a great pre for my sir front and centre, the amps are still used for the rears

[emerson]

yes something be very happy wiht am pretty sure. definitely some charecter differences between the brands too. so good got the opportunity to demo between them to decide for yourself what sounds best to your ears. Congrats !

It was a bit of a battle to get the hifi store to let me listen to them both, the sales rep made it seem like it was the hardest thing in the world to unpack an amp and plug it in.
Of course that soon faded when i told them i'd buy it and handed over the cash. The only thing that kept me from walking out was the owner of the store and how nice he was to me on my previous visit.

[com5984]

I think you'll find airplay should be free with new purchases

[peacewise]

Thanks for all the help guys, i went and had a listen yesterday and decided on the Denon.
Sounded much better IMO, so much deeper and fuller (if that makes sense), the Pioneer also sounded good but just a little thin and tinny compared to the Denon.

Sounds like that agree's with my assessment of the cheaper end of those two brands also. The Denon 1311 sounds better, deeper and fuller, than the Pioneer vsx919. My new Cambridge Audio 650 AVR sounds better than either of those entry models, would be interested how it sounds compared to the 4311 and the near top pioneer gear.

I also found that the pioneer sounded better, straight out of the box, for home theatre - but that after some time setting up, the Denon 1311 eventually overtook the pioneer in HT also. Musically the Denon has it all over the Pioneer.

[Juicester]

pfft -who uses an avr for anything other than the surround/sub anyway? that's what pre-outs are for. and NO denon is going to touch a good dedicated 3ch/2ch/ amp...

[zantac_2]

i use mine for 2 ch. that is until i buy a dedicated 2ch amp .

[Juicester]

just saying, potentially false economy. a 1.5k amp and a 1k 2 channel amp will out-perform a 2.5k amp for 2ch listen inmho....

[Nicholas Meza]

Better build and better sound , Denon

[indiancurry]

I have a boxed Denon 4308 , waiting for my new house to set up the AV. At the moment using the Yamaha RXV557. As Lil Caesar said, go for the Denon, ie if you have not already bought it