38 replies to this topic

[88pro]

Every one knows Bob Carver and acoustical copying (transfer function duplication). I think this article from Stereophile captures the essence very well.

I respect the him for the true knowledge he poses. Anyone who has that much intimate knowledge of the components must satisfy the 10,000 hour rule.

Recently I have been reading that he is getting back into Amp design and has started a new company http://www.bobcarver.com/.

The question I have is about the price of these amps. They are 7k and 12k respectively. Can't the new amp's sound be copied by using cheaper components with the same transfer function used by Bob Carver. And if it can be done, why isn't he producing the same sound for a cheaper price?

[MultiplexMan]

He most probably could - but I reckon it is a case of been there, done that, time for something different.

If you read the company statement:

We are a vacuum tube amplifier company. We will design, build and sell high quality, great sounding vacuum tube amplifiers. We will build these amplifiers with our bare hands, the old fashion way - using the highest quality components available with point to point wiring, no circuit board traces, no surface mount components or interconnect connectors. We believe our products will last a generation and be serviceable 50 years from now because we chose to build them this way, one chassis at a time.

I remember reading the uproar he created when he challenged the golden ears of the time. It set the tone for blind A/B test debate for decades to come...

[LogicprObe]

Did some one mention blind testing?

Anyway, hand made amps are not cheap to make, even in China.
Circuit boards can reduce the price but is shying away from therm.

[datafone]

If he has really used the very best components, it's not hard to justify such a price tag. For instance, look at the cost of the Silver variations of Duelund Caps

Then again, could be marketing spin *shrugs* Have to wait ans see if any internal pic show up on the net...

He could make the same designs using cheap parts, but they would sound different, no doubt.

[Drizt]

You mention dueland caps but do they really deserve their price?

Are.there anh measurements.to back up the claims of superiority ?

[ehtcom]

Apparently he is using caps that sound like them ;D

[LogicprObe]

Would caps made of bacon bring extra sizzle to the music, Earle?

[datafone]

I question the use of Bacon in Triode valves

Deleted, silly me they are 120's

[datafone]

You mention dueland caps but do they really deserve their price?

Are.there anh measurements.to back up the claims of superiority ?

Buy some and let me know

[ehtcom]

I question the use of Bacon in Triode valves

Deleted, silly me they are 120's

Bacon makes everything better. There is no need to blind test.

The Cherry 180 uses KT88's.
KT88's are rated up to 800 volts on the anode and 600V on the screen grid.
From what I can tell they are running pretty cool at idle ~12ma plate current (10 watts plate dissipation), and in pentode operation.

Cheers, Earle.

[ehtcom]

I really like the look of the Cherry 180.

[datafone]

Bacon makes everything better. There is no need to blind test.

The Cherry 180 uses KT88's.
KT88's are rated up to 800 volts on the anode and 600V on the screen grid.
From what I can tell they are running pretty cool at idle ~12ma plate current (10 watts plate dissipation), and in pentode operation.

Cheers, Earle.

Yeah, I had a "Doh" moment, as I thought the Black Beauty was also using KT88's and I looked at the plate voltage "Ekk" but then noticed they were 120's

They are indeed very nice looking amps.

[JohnA]

I really like the look of the Cherry 180.

that does look nice. Will suit my room perfectly i think

[protecon]

I thought Bob had been producing Tube amplifiers for some time now?

Still twitching I didn't push the button on these when they went up lol
http://www.ebay.com/...Tmn9BduFb5X0%3D

[ehtcom]

that does look nice. Will suit my room perfectly i think

Will?
Have you ordered a pair John?

Would love to see and hear them in the flesh

Cheers, Earle.

[JohnA]

Will?
Have you ordered a pair John?

Would love to see and hear them in the flesh

Cheers, Earle.

he he

god no

i'd need 4 of the buggers to power my mtm section and then a pair of black beauties for the bass section

might get a little expensive i think

still if i had a pair of passive speakers, i would seriously consider a pair, but then again, i could get you to build me something for a lot less and look almost the same

[Whatmore]

And if it can be done, why isn't he producing the same sound for a cheaper price?

Greedy self interest?

[88pro]

Greedy self interest?

That's definitely one way to look at it. Although I don't know, I have a feeling that it's more than that though

[LogicprObe]

That's a great looking amp.
Would go perfectly with those cherry speakers that JohnnyDarko was flogging.

[vic]

What about the silver seven mono amps they have sold for $33k on eBay ?

900watts 20 kt120 and only 400watts idle / amp.

[datafone]

I would like a look at more of this 8' Line Source that is noted as "Coming Soon" on that site

[kajak12]

If he has really used the very best components, it's not hard to justify such a price tag. For instance, look at the cost of the Silver variations of Duelund Caps

Then again, could be marketing spin *shrugs* Have to wait ans see if any internal pic show up on the net...

He could make the same designs using cheap parts, but they would sound different, no doubt.

http://www.audiokarm...ad.php?t=361099
naked carver

[datafone]

Oh well, the dosh is not in the small parts like resistors and caps...

But it does show that he can make these with cheap parts I'm sure they sound good, and of course the name carries a $$$ premium.

[kajak12]

Oh well, the dosh is not in the small parts like resistors and caps...

But it does show that he can make these with cheap parts I'm sure they sound good, and of course the name carries a $$$ premium.

http://www.ebay.com/...Tmn9BduFb5X0%3D

next one is yours

[datafone]

But I think they are the only two he is offering so far....only one left is the 900w Silver Seven listed as "Coming Soon".

Yeah, the two amps are the same apart from the valves, and transformers from what I gather.

Oh! found the 900w beast in one of his ebay sales http://www.ebay.com/...e=STRK:MEWAX:IT
[ATTACH=CONFIG]40405[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]40406[/ATTACH]

He sure looks like a character, and from what I have read he definitely has a sense of humor I like the hat

Found the speakers on review site..
http://audiophilerev...er-is-back.html

Attached Files

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Edited by datafone, 24 January 2012 - 01:37 AM.

[LogicprObe]

Beautifully wired and looks great
Those guys are some of the nutcases I used to read about in tubeland many years ago.
(I mean that in a nice way.............)

And who could forget my old mate John Boskie................... http://www.tubecad.com/

[Nada]

Wow..this dude has got the marketing sorted and I mean that with genuine respects for you cynical mind readers out there:

Winning bid:US $10,101.00
http://cgi.ebay.com/...=STRK:MEBIDX:IT


Winning bid:US $32,400.00
http://www.ebay.com/...e=STRK:MEWAX:IT


Earle - maybe you need to grow a moustache? Seriously though do you think the projected life of the tubes at 50 years is realisitic? It seems to be a great design from the point of tube life even if it did 20 years. Has this got you thinking about using the

new Tung-Sol KT120 output tubes
http://tctubes.com/t...t120-tubes.aspx

......The KT120 tube is one of the more exciting developments in new production vacuum tubes.....

.......Many people report improved bass response and increased output with KT120 tubes. The reason for this stronger response is obvious when you look at its test results. New production 6550 and KT88 tubes we test range from 90-140% of the expected value for mA and Gm. Under the exact same operating conditions (500v plate, 300v screen, -30.5v bias) the KT120 rarely tests lower than 125% and can test as high as 185%. (We reject KT120 tubes that test higher than 165%--at some point you have to say enough is enough!) .....

Edited by Nada, 24 January 2012 - 05:42 AM.

[bhobba]

You mention dueland caps but do they really deserve their price? Are.there anh measurements.to back up the claims of superiority ?

To my ears they deserve their price - but everyone is different. And no there are no measurements to back it up (other than low ESR and stray capsacatance), but having compared stuff with and without them the audible difference they produce is not subtle. Exactly why is a subject of hot debate - but many think it has to do with resonances and microphonics:
http://wduk.worldoma...ical_Report.pdf

'However, after all of the electrical measurements were taken, we drew a blank when it came to explaining the audible differences between capacitors - as expected, there were small variations in terms of ESR but nothing that explained the differences we could hear when listening to the capacitors.'

'The results were dramatic – over 70% stated a clear preference for the capacitors with lower mechanical resonances.'

As to the price Bob charges for his new amps and his ability to make any two amps sound the same, the work he had to put into doing that was quite large and done by hand 'nulling' the amp. I have zero idea if that could be replicated on a production line basis since it may involve time intensive hand tuning. Also just because you can produce an amp that sounds like some uber expensive amp produced in minuscule quantities there is no guarantee that amp will sell well enough to make it worthwhile. I read a review of some ungodly expensive SET amp and the wife of the reviewer preferred the Daynes Ampino. I seem to recall he did produce an amp that way but have zero idea how well it sold and exactly, on a production line, how well it copied the amp it was based on.

Thanks
Bill

Edited by bhobba, 24 January 2012 - 06:13 AM.

[datafone]

I can comment on Duelunds Alexandra caps, have them in my amp doing coupling duties and have about 80 hours up on them.

They just reproduce the music more correctly in every way, instruments and voices sound more like the real thing, the soundstage is rock solid and again just more correct than other caps I have used.

Everything is just more correct... if looking for a more real to life sound reproduction.

Measurements? I don't care when the differences are so pronounced

[rawl99]

If he has really used the very best components, it's not hard to justify such a price tag. For instance, look at the cost of the Silver variations of Duelund Caps

Then again, could be marketing spin *shrugs* Have to wait ans see if any internal pic show up on the net...

He could make the same designs using cheap parts, but they would sound different, no doubt.

Datafone

In an amp retailing for 10-12k I would be happy to venture that the likelihood of finding a silver duelund is hovering just below the 0% mark and the likelihood of finding, say, vsf duelunds is just a teensy bit higher. A typical push-pull valve amp will have 6 decoupling caps. One each channel from gain to driver tube and 2 each channel from driver to each output tube. At roughly $250 per duelund cap there's a grand and a half in cost already.

Compared with typical wima caps at a few bucks each....

Cheers
Rawl.

[rawl99]

You mention dueland caps but do they really deserve their price?

Are.there anh measurements.to back up the claims of superiority ?

Dritz,

Can you please give us a list of ALL the parameters we need to measure to PROVE the sonic superiority of the duelund caps and exactly what changes in which values are expected that will provide definitive proof that they sound better.

Personally, I have compared them with a squillion other caps with that insanely primitive methodology of listening to them, and much to my disgust (or at least my wallet's disgust) nothing I have compared with them does what the duelunds do FOR ME.
i like music to sound like music.

So please give us the definitive list of all the parameters required to be measured and I shall see what I can do to arrange the 'proof' for you.

Cheers
Rawl

[bhobba]

Personally, I have compared them with a squillion other caps with that insanely primitive methodology of listening to them, and much to my disgust (or at least my wallet's disgust) nothing I have compared with them does what the duelunds do FOR ME.
i like music to sound like music.

To your disgust? - I think its to everyone's that has heard them disgust. As Steve Garland said after hearing a comparison of my friends ML2 near reference with Duelund bypasses and ML3 Reference they are the only game in town

Thanks
Bill

[rawl99]

To your disgust? - I think its to everyone's that has heard them disgust. As Steve Garland said after hearing a comparison of my friends ML2 near reference with Duelund bypasses and ML3 Reference they are the only game in town

Thanks
Bill

Bill,
As you already well know, I am with you on that one.

The only reason I use the word 'disgust' is because they are by no means the cheapest beasties around. But when you compare them with quite a few others at similar or greater price the value does become apparent.

I would love to find an alternative at 1/10th the price that offers the same level of performance.

Oh well, keep looking.

Rawl

[Whatmore]

Dritz,

Can you please give us a list of ALL the parameters we need to measure to PROVE the sonic superiority of the duelund caps and exactly what changes in which values are expected that will provide definitive proof that they sound better.

Personally, I have compared them with a squillion other caps with that insanely primitive methodology of listening to them, and much to my disgust (or at least my wallet's disgust) nothing I have compared with them does what the duelunds do FOR ME.
i like music to sound like music.

So please give us the definitive list of all the parameters required to be measured and I shall see what I can do to arrange the 'proof' for you.

Cheers
Rawl

Good luck getting a reply from Drizt

[rawl99]

Good luck getting a reply from Drizt

Trevor,

Somehow methinks you just may be correct. He and I have been down this track in the past and to date I am still waiting patiently.

I personally have little doubt that those changes that we can hear can be measured. I just also happen to have little doubt that at this point in time we still have no clue as to what encompasses an all-defining set of measurements. Ie there are still a lot of things in the world of audio that fit into the " don't know what we don't know" category.
As an electrical engineer I feel quite unabashedly ashamed that there seem to be so many other engineers around that have such an extraordinarily arrogant and egotistical viewpoint as to suggest that we know all there is to know about audio/music reproduction and that we know all of the factors that affect/effect sonic character/nuance of audio components.

Now where the ell is that damn Higgs field.......boson.......black hole......

Edited by rawl99, 15 July 2012 - 10:51 PM.

[datafone]

Datafone

In an amp retailing for 10-12k I would be happy to venture that the likelihood of finding a silver duelund is hovering just below the 0% mark and the likelihood of finding, say, vsf duelunds is just a teensy bit higher. A typical push-pull valve amp will have 6 decoupling caps. One each channel from gain to driver tube and 2 each channel from driver to each output tube. At roughly $250 per duelund cap there's a grand and a half in cost already.

Compared with typical wima caps at a few bucks each....

Cheers
Rawl.

Hmm...This is true!

[Bodhi]

I am auditioning the Cherry 180's at Absolute Hi End tommorow, including the Magico S5's & AMG V12 tt. Will post an update soon!
Bodhi

[ehtcom]

Trevor,

Somehow methinks you just may be correct. He and I have been down this track in the past and to date I am still waiting patiently.

I personally have little doubt that those changes that we can hear can be measured. I just also happen to have little doubt that at this point in time we still have no clue as to what encompasses an all-defining set of measurements. Ie there are still a lot of things in the world of audio that fit into the " don't know what we don't know" category.
As an electrical engineer I feel quite unabashedly ashamed that there seem to be so many other engineers around that have such an extraordinarily arrogant and egotistical viewpoint as to suggest that we know all there is to know about audio/music reproduction and that we know all of the factors that affect/effect sonic character/nuance of audio components.

Now where the ell is that damn Higgs field.......boson.......black hole......

Hi Rawl.

There is one detail you have missed......

I think Trevor was trying to point out that Drizt was banned months ago.

Cheers, Earle.

[Bodhi]

I posted a short write up about the Carver Cherry 180's here (with photos) fyi - http://www.stereo.ne...age__hl__carver
Bodhi