146 replies to this topic

[setamp]

I have read several discussions that refer to the Offramp, Audiophilleo, etc. but have yet to see them discussed relative to each other. From my browsing, I gather the consensus is roughly: Offramp>Wavelink>Audiophilleo or Jkeny mk3 > Stello. This may or may not be a fair ranking but I hope to open the discussion. How do these actually sound relative to each other? I have read in-depth descriptions of dac's and feel comfortable making a decision as to which one I would probably most desire. With these converters, however, I have no clue as to how they actually sound.

[kdoot]

Apart from the factor of synergy - different DACs might perform slightly better with a JK than an AP, for example - they basically all sound the same. That is, the better they are the more they sound like nothing at all. All you're left with is the sound of the music and the DAC.

The biggest factor is the quality and stability of the crystal oscillators (i.e. the "clocks") in the devices. The stability is influenced by the quality of the power supply, hence all the talk about running things from batteries.

[setamp]

So, a Jkeny Mk3 will sound the same as the offramp 5 but for the $700 price difference, you are getting better execution (more realism?). I am trying to figure out which device to purchase. I don't mind paying for quality if I am actually getting it.

Also, would the difference between the jkeny and offramp be significant on a good dac or are the returns diminishing as you move up in dac quality?

Thanks.

[lebowski]

I think bhobba would be a good one to answer this as he has heard/owned all of the devices you list.

[setamp]

I'm now wondering if it is worth investing in usb/spdif device. It might make sense to move to a Bryston BDP-1 and eliminate the mac mini. The device is supposed to have very low jitter and sound great. I would be giving up, however, flexibility that I have with the mini (music player and music management software).

[GregWormald]

I have read in a few different forums that the OPTICAL output of the 2011 Mac Minis is exceptionally low in jitter--less that 30 pico-seconds and some measurements close to 10 pS.
Why go to USB?

Greg

[setamp]

I have a 2010 mini. I'll try a toslink cable.

[Kamikaze]

I don't want to hijack the thread, but is there anything half decent for cheap? like <$200?
I'd like to give one a try, but I can not afford to buy an audiophilleo or offramp.
I just want to get a feel for what they can do.

[kdoot]

I don't want to hijack the thread, but is there anything half decent for cheap? like <$200?
I'd like to give one a try, but I can not afford to buy an audiophilleo or offramp.
I just want to get a feel for what they can do.

The cheapest one worth trying is the Audio-GD Digital Interface. It's not async, but it's pretty good regardless. You still need a decent coax cable though, which adds to the cost and complexity.

[John H. Darko]

Apart from the factor of synergy - different DACs might perform slightly better with a JK than an AP, for example - they basically all sound the same. That is, the better they are the more they sound like nothing at all. All you're left with is the sound of the music and the DAC.

Indeed. I preferred the Metrum Octave with the JK more so than with the AP. The JK took away some of the glassiness and etch (that was more prominent with the AP). Having said that, I mostly prefer the AP with other DACs but there really isn't a lot in it.

[alcarp]

I have read in a few different forums that the OPTICAL output of the 2011 Mac Minis is exceptionally low in jitter--less that 30 pico-seconds and some measurements close to 10 pS.
Why go to USB?



Greg

I have a Mac mini 2011 and the sound quality out of USB to the Audiophilleo is way, way better than out of the optical port.

[seaninbrisbane]

I don't want to hijack the thread, but is there anything half decent for cheap? like <$200?
I'd like to give one a try, but I can not afford to buy an audiophilleo or offramp.
I just want to get a feel for what they can do.

You're welcome to borrow my Audio-GD Digital Interface for a week or two if you like - I'm without a DAC at the moment so it's not being used.

[setamp]

A lot of people like the Kingrex UC-192 USB/Spdif Bridge - it is ~ USD200.

[bebop]

I have a MAc mini (2009) feeding the Rega DAC via optical and via USB to the Audio-GD DI then to coax (Chord Prodac cable).

I tested this via the headphones (B&W P5) and could notice a difference. Example, female vocals, the end of higher notes were a bit harsher via the optical, and a bit smoother via the DI. I'm too inexperienced to now if this is jitter or not, just that I could hear a noticeable difference.

On the main system, I haven't yet noticed a difference as background music plays. I haven't had a chance lately to have a listening session when all is quiet.

[biologist]

What about the Musical Fidelity V Link 192?
Available now I believe.

[kdoot]

What about the Musical Fidelity V Link 192?
Available now I believe.

Its biggest weakness is that is has only one crystal oscillator, for the 48/96/192 family. If you're playing 44.1 material, you get PLL-induced jitter as the v-link has to approximate that frequency.

It works - i.e. you get audio out of USB and into SPDIF - but it doesn't sound much good.

[biologist]

The new V Link (still) has this issue, or do you mean the old one? The new V Link 192 has only just been released.

[88Blades]

Is that really possible? Anyway, I am so glad I found this site. I hope I'm very much welcome in here.

[biologist]

Spam reported

[kdoot]

The new V Link (still) has this issue, or do you mean the old one? The new V Link 192 has only just been released.

I know nothing of the new one - it's not even officially out yet, by the look of it. I'm talking about the 96kHz one. (Shouldn't have mentioned 192 in the crystal frequency earlier, sorry.)

[biologist]

I know nothing of the new one - it's not even officially out yet, by the look of it. I'm talking about the 96kHz one. (Shouldn't have mentioned 192 in the crystal frequency earlier, sorry.)

Fair enough, just wondered if you were on an inside run there

[RockandorRoll]

I don't want to hijack the thread, but is there anything half decent for cheap? like <$200?
I'd like to give one a try, but I can not afford to buy an audiophilleo or offramp.
I just want to get a feel for what they can do.

i use this
http://coemaudio.com...uter-Audio/287/
it does what i pay it to do

[Nada]

Indeed. I preferred the Metrum Octave with the JK more so than with the AP. The JK took away some of the glassiness and etch (that was more prominent with the AP). Having said that, I mostly prefer the AP with other DACs but there really isn't a lot in it.

Fascinating finding noted there.
Did you try up-sampling into the Metrum by any chance? If so did the etch change?

[bhobba]

So, a Jkeny Mk3 will sound the same as the offramp 5 but for the $700 price difference, you are getting better execution (more realism?). I am trying to figure out which device to purchase. I don't mind paying for quality if I am actually getting it. Also, would the difference between the jkeny and offramp be significant on a good dac or are the returns diminishing as you move up in dac quality?

Having compared by myself, and with fellow Audiophiles, an Off-Ramp to all the others you mention, and the Berkeley, I can assure you it sounds the best with one exception. By sounding the best is meant less slurry, smother, more analogue like, and a lack of a quality I call 'darkness' that I have come to associate with Jitter. The one exception is I2S into a PDX from the Off-Ramp compared to its internal battery powered M2Tech board. I, and some fellow audiophiles, have conducted a careful comparison of the two and it was excruciatingly close - so close right now I will not which won by a whisker. I have both in my system now and when I get some time will do some more comparisons. I have already done a quick further comparison with a fellow SNAer and we thought, again very very close, but the Off-Ramp may just be slightly smother by a whisker - whether that is at the expense of something else only further listening tests will show. How does it compete? The conjecture is the shorter path lengths of the internal M2Tech is what allows it to be so competitive whereas the external version of the M2Tech is not.

The problem here however is not which is best - the problem is is it worth the extra dosh. Of the people I have demoed the Off-Ramp to some say it is (I am in that camp) others say it isn't. Its basically up to you.

Thanks
Bill

[bhobba]

I have read in a few different forums that the OPTICAL output of the 2011 Mac Minis is exceptionally low in jitter--less that 30 pico-seconds and some measurements close to 10 pS. Why go to USB?

I have tried it into my Metrum and to be blunt - it is hopeless - slow, uninvolving, and boring. I only recommend it as an interim measure.

Thanks
Bill

Edited by bhobba, 17 January 2012 - 05:28 PM.

[bhobba]

What about the Musical Fidelity V Link 192? Available now I believe.

An acquaintance bought one over (not the newer model) - OK - but my other stuff at the time murdered it.

Thanks
Bill

Edited by bhobba, 17 January 2012 - 05:32 PM.

[JCM]

Have you checked one of these out,Stello U3 (link Below) dual chip sets for both sampling frequencies. I have seen one in the flesh compact but very solid billet aluminium casing, agree with other poster about optical out on MAC (KISS method), but toslink is limited to 96Kh if that's an issue.

Hailide Bridge is good because it is the cable too.

http://www.aprilmusi...ub02_03_05.html

[waricle]

Bugger, I have a Mac

[Jventer]

Music Fidelity V Link - several suppliers including Len Wallis , Consonance Box 1.1 - Osborn Loudspeakers, M2 Tech Hi Face - Wicked Digital all for less than $200

[Jventer]

From what I have gathered from other threads on this forum it appears it Offramp is better than Audiphilleo and possibly better than J Kenny Mk3 - it certainly is more expensive. Dont know where Stello fits in. There is an interesting related post on Computer Audiophile.
I have heard the Bryston referred to in your other post - sound was good, it is a different approach than the mac mini though - more expensive possibly too.
The different dacs might sound different with different converters. Interesting that the Phasure, Lampizator, pdx and Audio Aero dacs have related or inbuilt converters.
IMO what is happening know is that the computer software, usb/spdif converters and dacs are developing fast and one should buy equipment that can be upgraded. I would not buy anything that is not upgradeable. My reasoning. If I buy a Bryston that can do music at 32/192 and I can download music at 384 and my dac can only do 24/96 then I will be limited to 24/96. And finally listen before you buy.

[bhobba]

Have you checked one of these out,Stello U3 (link Below) dual chip sets for both sampling frequencies.

Yes - not bad - but the Audiophilleo was clearly better.

Thanks
Bill

[wis97non]

A lot of people like the Kingrex UC-192 USB/Spdif Bridge - it is ~ USD200.

For $189:
http://shop.maplesha...r=USBADAPTER-CL

Also for about $350:
http://www.lindemann...odukt-features/

"Unlike other products on the market, the USB-DDC 24/192 has an additional data processing circuit (with data buffering and clock-synchronization), which means it can guarantee an output signal jitter performance that not even the most expensive CD drives can match. The grounding system is completely electrically insulated"

A comprehensive listing here:
http://thewelltemper...W/USB_SPDIF.htm

Edited by wis97non, 18 January 2012 - 01:02 AM.
More info

[Kamikaze]

Seaninbrisbane has kindly loaned me the Audio dg DI, and I had a little play with it so far.
The change was quite phenomenal. I used to be happy with the Metrum just being fed straight off the PC. This has really taught me that I can get so much more out of it. I had heard about this, but I didn't realise how much better it was.
The sound is more natural, has more drive behind it, more emotion behind it, bass has more substance to it (more punch?)...
I wasn't exactly unhappy with the Metrum on its own, but I used to think it sounded a bit thin... like listening to music in too large and open a space from the back of the venue (like the BEC if you know what I mean...)... but adding the DI, it has made it like I am sitting in the sweetspot of a well designed amphetheatre. (I don't know if I'm explaining this well... but I'm not good at using words to describe sound. I'm relatively new to this game)

Now, I will definitely have to think about getting something to the likes. May be even an Audiophilleo 2 if budget allows, and everyone thinks it's that much better (what's everyone's opinion on this?)
I will definitely have to wait till after I pay my rego next week, but research starts!!

[kdoot]

"Unlike other products on the market, the USB-DDC 24/192 has an additional data processing circuit (with data buffering and clock-synchronization)

Pure marketing bull****, I'm afraid. Have a look at the circuit board photo and you'll see a Wolfson WM8804 SPDIF chip. That's where the "buffering and clock sync" comes in.

It's a clever chip, and yields real improvements over doing nothing at all, but it's not on par with some of the other products mentioned. Even the Audio-GD is likely to beat it in most cases, though it doesn't go to 192kHz.

BTW, the WM8804/5 is also found in the Firestone Bravo, the Rega DAC and the SPDIF-equipped PDX. Probably in the new Cambridge Audio products. And so on.

[kdoot]

Seaninbrisbane has kindly loaned me the Audio dg DI, and I had a little play with it so far.
The change was quite phenomenal. I used to be happy with the Metrum just being fed straight off the PC. This has really taught me that I can get so much more out of it. I had heard about this, but I didn't realise how much better it was.
The sound is more natural, has more drive behind it, more emotion behind it, bass has more substance to it (more punch?)...
I wasn't exactly unhappy with the Metrum on its own, but I used to think it sounded a bit thin... like listening to music in too large and open a space from the back of the venue (like the BEC if you know what I mean...)... but adding the DI, it has made it like I am sitting in the sweetspot of a well designed amphetheatre. (I don't know if I'm explaining this well... but I'm not good at using words to describe sound. I'm relatively new to this game)

Now, I will definitely have to think about getting something to the likes. May be even an Audiophilleo 2 if budget allows, and everyone thinks it's that much better (what's everyone's opinion on this?)
I will definitely have to wait till after I pay my rego next week, but research starts!!

Oh yes, the Metrum absolutely needs a clean SPDIF source because it has no jitter rejection of any significance built into it. I'm sure we could arrange for you to have a listen with an AP2 - it's better than the Audio-GD but probably not as dramatic an improvement as you've just heard.

[Kamikaze]

I'm sure we could arrange for you to have a listen with an AP2 - it's better than the Audio-GD but probably not as dramatic an improvement as you've just heard.

Thanks kdoot. I'd like to hear AP2 in action sometime, but I'm happier with spending less money than more, so (unless there is a massive jump in performance,) I might just try a few $200-250ish devices and see which one works best for me... along with some web research.
I think some that are currently on my list are M2tech hiface, Audio DG DI and v-link II... this list may blow up to be a lot longer as my research goes on.

[bhobba]

The change was quite phenomenal. I used to be happy with the Metrum just being fed straight off the PC. This has really taught me that I can get so much more out of it. I had heard about this, but I didn't realise how much better it was.

The Metrum is one of those DAC's that benefits enormously from a low jitter source - any better source is easily heard with that DAC. I always recommend if you get a Metrun you get the best source you can - even though it is by far the most expensive the Off-Ramp performs the best with that DAC.

Thanks
Bill

[Kamikaze]

I understand with more money, you can get better performance, but I just can not justify the spending with my finances.
I have other things in life that needs to be taken as priority, fortunately or unfortunately...

[bhobba]

I understand with more money, you can get better performance, but I just can not justify the spending with my finances. I have other things in life that needs to be taken as priority, fortunately or unfortunately...

No problemo. Simply remember with the Metrum to get the best your budget will allow.

Thanks
Bill

[Kamikaze]

Thanks Bill for your advice. I understand you have extensive experience with digital music, and your input is appreciated.
I may save up to get an audiophilleo, or try and find what is the best for under $250 in my system... or may be there's a comparable unit to audiophilleo in the similar or less price?? anyone willing to put in their thought on this?? (anyone with thoughts on hi-face evo or bel canto thing?)

I've still got a few days in loan of the Audio dg, so I'll see if I can get my hands on any comparison units in the meantime.

Cheers,

[ummagumma]

I'm also trying to decide how to get the best out of my Laptop PC setup without going crazy price wise.
Whether to go Audiophilleo 1 or 2 or ?. Whether to stay PC or go Mac Mini or another DAC etc etc......
Currently for PC driven sound it basically looks like:
Laptop--->USB to Onkyo NDS1--->ME12 DAC via coax(or Perpet Tech 1A,3A)--->ME24--->ME850--->TannoySRM1000
FLAC lossless ripped with DBPoweramp, using J River MC17 using no DSP settings and 16/44.1 except for HDCD albums. Using ASIO4all.
Also any thought on using a Vaunix USB hub or something similar to minimise USB power noise etc?
So any advice would also be appreciated on this subject.
Decisions decisions... so many forum articles and reviews.....
Steve

Edited by ummagumma, 19 January 2012 - 04:48 PM.
correction

[LuzArt]

Kamikaze - I really think you should wait longer, now that you've heard the Audio GD DI, and save for something substantial. Spending half is fine for the budget, but why are you doing this in the first place? Better SQ? In time I tink you'll only be disappointed with something less and you'll end up getting an AP2 or Audio GD DI and essentially losing out on selling the cheaper converter for less. If you can hold out and save for a few months, you could have an AP2 and you will not be disappointed with it.

ummagumma - There's no SQ difference between the AP1 and AP2. It's all explained on their website. If you're on a PC, why not stay, use the free software available (foobar) maybe with JPlay to wring as much SQ out of it as you can (I still haven't tried that yet) and go with a decent DAC (around AU$500). There's a bunch available at that price now and I daresay more to come.

[wis97non]

Pure marketing bull****, I'm afraid. Have a look at the circuit board photo and you'll see a Wolfson WM8804 SPDIF chip. That's where the "buffering and clock sync" comes in.

It's a clever chip, and yields real improvements over doing nothing at all, but it's not on par with some of the other products mentioned. Even the Audio-GD is likely to beat it in most cases, though it doesn't go to 192kHz.

BTW, the WM8804/5 is also found in the Firestone Bravo, the Rega DAC and the SPDIF-equipped PDX. Probably in the new Cambridge Audio products. And so on.

Interesting comment. Thanks

[GregWormald]

I have compared the optical against the USB from the 2011 Mac Mini to the Audio-gd NFB2 and to my ears (and a few others) the optical wins each time.
Has anyone tried this comparison with a DI or Audiophilleo in the USB chain?
How does it compare?
Is there anyone in Adelaide (or elsewhere) who would like to bring along or loan a DI or Audiophilleo so I can compare for myself?

Greg

[kdoot]

I have compared the optical against the USB from the 2011 Mac Mini to the Audio-gd NFB2 and to my ears (and a few others) the optical wins each time.

Yep. It's worth saying again and again: the built-in USB interfaces on the majority of DACs are really not worth listening to. Even Toslink straight from a computer tends to beat it!