30 replies to this topic

[kajak12]

Hello sgr just wondering is it possible to get any off axis measurements displayed from your range of speakers for the curious to see on sna all the best
kind regards kajak12

[Mika75]

It's interesting, a Loudspeaker manufacturer that relies heavily on Science and Technical claims but has no verifiable frequency response measurement's whatsoever on their website?

[SGR]

Hello sgr just wondering is it possible to get any off axis measurements displayed from your range of speakers for the curious to see on sna all the best
kind regards kajak12

Hi Mario,

When I first read your post I thought it seemed a rather random request, but a little digging...

Its not about seeing drizt its all about hearing i have a great idea could you please get some off axis measurements from sgr if you don't mind it would be interesting to compare lenehan and sgr on measurements

Mario hope you understand I really don't have time for games so if this turns into a measurement war or anything like the usual "hearing vs measurements" debate then you wont find me replying for too much longer

I had a quick read of the ML2 thread, and I admit it was "quick" so I could have missed a few points but have I summarized it correctly?

1. Two way bookshelf
2. Eight inch bass driver
3. 1" dome tweeter?
4. Crossed at 3K?
5. Perfectly flat polar response?
6. Only 2dB down at 16Khz, 60 degrees off (horizontal?) axis?
7. Excellent polar response out to 90 degrees off (horizontal?) axis?
8. Same vertical polar response resulting in perfect imaging when listening far off axis vertically?

Kind Regards,

Stuart

[Drizt]

Stuart sorry my want for more info in the ML2 thread lead to a diversionary request from someone else for info from you.

[Nigel]

HEy Stuart, I heard Ozmillsy's SGRs and while they were active, the XO and and EQ were set, presumably to set some FR for the speaker and to stop users stuffing it up. Do your top o' the line offerings allow users to do some room correction as well ? and stuff it up right royally ??

[Drizt]

Nigel, mine do. See my most recent MT3FSL thread for the details. -> http://www.stereo.net.au/forums/showthread.php/38491-SGR-MT3FSL-In-production-)?p=575990&viewfull=1#post575990

Thank you very much guys for the kind words.

I'm extremely happy to have my speakers back, they always manage to bring a smile to my dial.

I thought I would post a picture that shows the amp dials / switches a little better. There really is a lot of functionality built into these bad boys



From the top...

All controls operate in the analogue domain. These are analogue active speakers

Tweeter level +/- 3dB
High frequency roll off (on/off) - handy for anyone with a bright room.
- Roll off level @ 10kHz -8db to 0dB
Midrange level +/- 3dB
2 x Parametric EQ (each with)
- Level +/- 12 dB
- Frequency 30 - 300hz
- Bandwidth wide - narrow (Q)
- on / off switch
2 x bass room EQ (two switch for 0, 3 or 6dB)
Full range or limited (enables subwoofer out's) switch
- High Pass frequency setting 25-120Hz
- Low Pass frequency setting 20-120Hz (Having control over both high and low pass allows you to over lap the mains and the subs - very handy feature which is quite rare to see)
Subwoofer Level +/- 6dB
RCA subwoofer out
2 x XLR subwoofer out (thats 3 subwoofer outs per speaker)
RCA input
XLR input
Individual or Sum for the XLR and RCA inputs (Very handy feature, it means you can completely separate your HT and HIFI set ups and not need to have a pre with ht bypass)
- RCA or XLR switch (ignored if sum is selected, which means they both played)
On / Off switch


It is very feature rich.

[kajak12]

It's interesting, a Loudspeaker manufacturer that relies heavily on Science and Technical claims but has no verifiable frequency response measurement's whatsoever on their website?

hopefully that will change i will do my best

[Drizt]

............................

Edited by Drizt, 10 December 2011 - 06:56 PM.
Removed by request

[Nigel]

Drizt, that looks excellent. Lots of fun to be had. I'd love to check 'em out if ever I get a visa...

[JA]

Kajaks 1st Post - #1 for reference

Hello sgr just wondering is it possible to get any off axis measurements displayed from your range of speakers for the curious to see on sna all the best
kind regards kajak12

Kajaks 2nd Post - #7 for reference, responding to Mika

It's interesting, a Loudspeaker manufacturer that relies heavily on Science and Technical claims but has no verifiable frequency response measurement's whatsoever on their website?

hopefully that will change i will do my best

There is no problem with either of Kajak's posts above, but there was a problem with Drizt's post where he was suggeting Kajak was a hyprocrite for wanting to see the SGR data. Drizt has subsequently reviewed his post and edited it following discussions/ PMs with me, copied to mod/admin group

Best
JA

Edited by JA, 10 December 2011 - 07:57 PM.

[SGR]

HEy Stuart, I heard Ozmillsy's SGRs and while they were active, the XO and and EQ were set, presumably to set some FR for the speaker and to stop users stuffing it up. Do your top o' the line offerings allow users to do some room correction as well ? and stuff it up right royally ??

Hey Nigel,

All of my actives these days have some adjustment, but not actual adjustment of the crossover points as they are all designed acoustically optimized. Variable crossovers, adjustable by the user, is not a wise idea for obvious reasons.

Cheers,

Stuart

[Peter the Greek]

Interesting thread this.

I am still at a loss as to why pro speaker companies (and seldom few "consumer" speaker makers) willingly publish off axis response data and polar charts, but consumer manufacturers wont.....either they don't understand the importance or its just plain arrogant i.e. they're hiding something....I for one will never buy a speakers going forward without seeing the data.....even most DIY/OEM parts publish the data or at least will provide it

[Paul Spencer]

Couple of points. Consumers don't demand it and mostly aren't interested. Most designers don't focus a great deal on off axis response.

There is more interest in off axis response in the pro arena because getting good sound to a large group of people involves mostly the off axis response. In that setting, constant directivity is also of greater importance. Measurements showing beamwidth, directivity, polar response are common with pro speakers, but it isn't always provided. In home audio it's mostly DIY enthusiasts who want to know about it. It's then up to them to take their own measurements.

These measurements only show you a part of the picture. They certainly say a lot more than a gated axial response, but you can't look at it and see everything about how a speaker sounds. In fact, the link between this measurement and what you hear isn't clear. I've heard quite a few speakers measured in this way now. I've been able to make a link in some cases.

[Zammo]

Hello sgr just wondering is it possible to get any off axis measurements displayed from your range of speakers for the curious to see on sna all the best
kind regards kajak12

Didn't take any measurements when I was listening to the MT3F's at the SGR headquarters, but I thought the off-axis response was excellent. I was listening to some Phil Collins and wandered into the kitchen area for some lovely cake and tea that Anne had prepared, and would you believe it, but Phil Collins followed me into the kitchen. Bloody amazing. We sat down and had a chat. Told him I thought his acting career was a shambles, and he promptly went back into the living room where the speakers were and continued singing and banging away on his drums.

Now tell me how many speakers you know that can do that!

Anyhow, with your Golden Ears, who needs off-axis measurements? Like, I've always wondered what the title "In the Air Tonight" meant - if you listen really closely off-axis, Phil Collins lets rip just before the awesome drum bit. You must have heard it!

Edited by Zammo, 27 March 2012 - 10:01 AM.

[GregWormald]

Geeze mate, that sounds great. I'll have to get that cake recipe from Anne.

Greg

[gainphile]

Off axis response of box speakers with direct radiator size changes like 6" woofers to 1" tweeters are quite predictably horrible. But in this case sgr uses small mid (3"?). This would have helped the transition.

Whether this is audible is much influenced by room and taste I think. For sure speakers with good directivity would be much more predictable.

[Drizt]

Hows your new mid treating you gainphile? The directivity plots you posted didn't look as good but from your posts you seem to be more pleased with them than you previously were with a bigger mid and better directivity plot. Have your opinions on directivity changed ?

Edited by Drizt, 27 March 2012 - 09:56 PM.

[gainphile]

Not as great as 8" dipole + large 10" waveguide but they relieve stored energy problems. I had been willing to trade off.

[Drizt]

Not as great as 8" dipole + large 10" waveguide but they relieve stored energy problems. I had been willing to trade off.

Good to know. So off axis measurements don't really tell the full story, just a part of it.

[gainphile]

I'd put 30% each on polar response, distortion, and aesthetics.

As you know geddes may put 90% on directivity and that distortions doesnt matter.

[Zammo]

I'd put 30% each on polar response, distortion, and aesthetics.

As you know geddes may put 90% on directivity and that distortions doesnt matter.

Some sensible posts there Gainphile. As in all things audio, there is no perfect answer. All you can hope for is that manufacturers balance the trade-offs in various parameters to achieve a satisfactory whole. Concentrating purely on off-axis response is a little silly really. (thus my silly post)

Greg, I'm sure Anne doesn't spike her tea or cakes - but it would certainly heighten the experience of some of the psy-trance I listen too!

Edited by Zammo, 28 March 2012 - 07:17 PM.

[norpus]

Didn't take any measurements when I was listening to the MT3F's at the SGR headquarters, but I thought the off-axis response was excellent. I was listening to some Phil Collins and wandered into the kitchen area for some lovely cake and tea that Anne had prepared, and would you believe it, but Phil Collins followed me into the kitchen. Bloody amazing. We sat down and had a chat. Told him I thought his acting career was a shambles, and he promptly went back into the living room where the speakers were and continued singing and banging away on his drums. Now tell me how many speakers you know that can do that! Anyhow, with your Golden Ears, who needs off-axis measurements? Like, I've always wondered what the title "In the Air Tonight" meant - if you listen really closely off-axis, Phil Collins lets rip just before the awesome drum bit. You must have heard it!

Fcuking hilarious!! gold star for you zammo

[kajak12]

Didn't take any measurements when I was listening to the MT3F's at the SGR headquarters, but I thought the off-axis response was excellent. I was listening to some Phil Collins and wandered into the kitchen area for some lovely cake and tea that Anne had prepared, and would you believe it, but Phil Collins followed me into the kitchen. Bloody amazing. We sat down and had a chat. Told him I thought his acting career was a shambles, and he promptly went back into the living room where the speakers were and continued singing and banging away on his drums.

Now tell me how many speakers you know that can do that!

Anyhow, with your Golden Ears, who needs off-axis measurements? Like, I've always wondered what the title "In the Air Tonight" meant - if you listen really closely off-axis, Phil Collins lets rip just before the awesome drum bit. You must have heard it!

Good for you but i dont trust your ears

[Zammo]

Good for you but i dont trust your ears

It's my sanity you shouldn't trust!

[Drizt]

It's my sanity you shouldn't trust!

lol. That is a scary thought.

[Peter the Greek]

but I thought the off-axis response was excellent. I was listening to some Phil Collins and wandered into the kitchen area for some lovely cake and tea that Anne had prepared, and would you believe it, but Phil Collins followed me into the kitchen.

Good off axis response and dispersion/directivity are two different things. Its not the "amount" i.e. dispersion of off-axis response that is the key, its the shape. All speakers roll off, its the shape of that roll-off that you want consistent, on axis and off axis - so the shape at 30 and 60 is as close to the shape at 0 as you can get.

Why is this important? it determines the type of treatment (if at all) required in a room.

[Mika75]

Relationship between Loudspeaker Measurements and Listener Preferences by Sean Olive 2008

Trained and untrained listeners prefer the same loudspeakers..

Trained listeners performed 3 to 20 times better than untrained listeners based on their ability to give discriminating and reliable loudspeaker ratings...

There are clear visual correlations between listeners' loudspeaker preferences and the set of frequency graphs. Both trained and untrained listeners clearly preferred the loudspeakers with the flattest, smoothest and most extended frequency response curves, as exhibited in the measurements of loudspeakers P and I. Loudspeaker B was rated lower due to its less extended, bumpy bass, and a large hole centered at 3 kHz in its sound power curve. The measurements of Loudspeaker M indicate it has a lack of low bass, and has a non-smooth frequency response in all of its measured curves. Both the direct and reflected sounds produced by this loudspeaker will contribute serious colorations to the timbre of reproduced sounds.

Loudspeaker P has since been identified as the Infinity Primus 362 ~$500 US
Loudspeaker B is the B&W 802N ~$8000 US

Edited by Mika75, 15 April 2012 - 01:13 PM.

[b.d]

I'd put 30% each on polar response, distortion, and aesthetics.

As you know geddes may put 90% on directivity and that distortions doesnt matter.

For some reason I just had a thought as I was falling asleep tonight, by Geddes theory wouldnt all speakers then sound pretty much the same on-axis outdoors?

[Decky]

Frequency responce (on or off axis) is just one bit of information that can indicate how certain speakers will sound. There are other aspects - resonance of the box and overall dynamic response of the drivers. Say for example - take a ring radiator tweeter and a ribbon tweeter (efficiency aside) they both can give you a very flat response between 5 and 30KHz - however they will sond very different even to untrained ears. Any speaker is an anlogue dynamic system - so when you tell him "give me 3.453KHz now" the response is "what, let me think about it, OK I am doing it, just a little bit more, oh God it is hard work, yep its done here is 3.389KHz", and they all respond in slightly different ways.

[b.d]

Yeah that's kind of along the lines of what I was thinking, but it seems Geddes is maybe saying that these account for less than 10% of differences and that speakers would sound very nearly identical listened to outdoors and on axis, which I'm finding hard to swallow.

[Paul Spencer]

Who knows what Geddes thinks about that. Keep in mind that he uses fairly expensive pro drivers. There are much cheaper units he could use that would be very similar in dispersion. The cheaper units have higher distortion and lower power handling. Both items he seems to claim are not important.