78 replies to this topic

[davlee]

Thanks to this forum, I bought a Logitech SBT. I now wish to add a good DAC to improve the sound quality. My main use is playing WAV files via a portable hard drive (1Tb). Amp is RCA in only.
Thanks again for the help,

Dave

[matt200sr]

Audio-gd NFB-3.1 and NFB-2 are widely recieved well on these forums. Although I believe the NFB-2 is now discontinued, the former being excellent value for money at $300 delivered.

http://www.digitalau...2-dac-19-series

[danter]

What is your budget? Anything less than the audio-gd nfb3 probably won't be much of an upgrade. The internal dac in the touch is pretty good.

[davlee]

Budget is not a real issue. I am happy to pay whatever is required to get good sound. I suppose if pressed, under $1000 would be good. As you can see, I am a novice with this and am not really sure what a good unit would cost. The reason I am happy with the SBT is that I have proved to myself that it does a good job with random selection of my 13,000 wav files. That is the main reason I am now happy to link it with a good dac.
The retailer I normally deal with sells Sonos gear, but I don't know how it compares with other brands (quality of sound wise).
Thanks everyone,
Dave

[88pro]

What amp and speakers are you using ?

[davlee]

Amp is - Musical Fidelity A5
Speakers are - JBL - I forget the model but they cost $6,000 the pair almost 20 years ago.
Dave

[RockandorRoll]

Theres a nice PS Audio DAC in the classfieds

[sjay]

a rega or audio gd nfb2 will fit the bill for well under 1000 each.....imho.

[NGM]

I have a Squeezebox Touch and I had an NFB2.
The NFB 2 was quite a few more $ then the squeezebox and personally, I didn't think it's cost justified the price of the DAC as an upgrade in that scenario. I found the differences to be marginal.
NFB2 I'm sure would greatly benefit a computer based system or some CD player upgrades, but it wasn't a giant killer when compared side by side with the Squeezebox Touch IMHO.

Edited by NGM, 20 November 2011 - 05:09 PM.

[danter]

Only goes to show different ears and different systems. I thought the nfb2 was a very worthwhile upgrade over the internal SBT dac.
Re Sonos vs SBT, there' s a very long and heated thread on this - but I have yet to hear from anyone who has done a side-by-side test on the same system to get a definitive answer re SQ.

That PS Audio DL3 in the classifieds is not a bad option either. Modded versions (authorized Cullen mods and the like) have only gone for a few hundred more too, so bargains to be had. The EE Minimax might also suit and has dropped in price recently if memory serves to around $700.

[Batty]

I have a Squeezebox Touch and I had an NFB2.
The NFB 2 was quite a few more $ then the squeezebox and personally, I didn't think it's cost justified the price of the DAC as an upgrade in that scenario. I found the differences to be marginal.
NFB2 I'm sure would greatly benefit a computer based system or some CD player upgrades, but it wasn't a giant killer when compared side by side with the Squeezebox Touch IMHO.

Remove it from your system, you don't know what you've got till it's gone.

I use the NFB-2 with my SBT, I went for the DIR9002 option.

[sjay]

Remove it from your system, you don't know what you've got till it's gone.

I use the NFB-2 with my SBT, I went for the DIR9002 option.

i went for the DIR9001 as well.....( assuming the 9002 ref you made is a type o)

maybe thats why we like the nfb 2 and NGM did not...

[Batty]

Yeah, 9001, 2 other people I know have the DIR9001 option too and they are impressed.

Edited by Batty, 21 November 2011 - 04:41 PM.

[matt200sr]

I aquired the WM8805 version which I am very happy with playing FLAC from my PC but am awaiting the arrival of the DIR9001 from KINGWA shortly.

[NGM]

Only goes to show different ears and different systems. I thought the nfb2 was a very worthwhile upgrade over the internal SBT dac.
Re Sonos vs SBT, there' s a very long and heated thread on this - but I have yet to hear from anyone who has done a side-by-side test on the same system to get a definitive answer re SQ.

That PS Audio DL3 in the classifieds is not a bad option either. Modded versions (authorized Cullen mods and the like) have only gone for a few hundred more too, so bargains to be had. The EE Minimax might also suit and has dropped in price recently if memory serves to around $700.

Don't get me wrong, it is certainly without question better than the SQWZBX, but at all most twice the price, for me, the difference wasn't big enough to justify the price.

[NGM]

i went for the DIR9001 as well.....( assuming the 9002 ref you made is a type o)

maybe thats why we like the nfb 2 and NGM did not...

Sold it now, didn't have the DIR9001, hmmmm.

[pete_mac]

Sold it now, didn't have the DIR9001, hmmmm.

That could explain a lot. The DIR9001 sounds better.

[desap0]

Is the DIR9001 easy enough to fit with little circuitry knowledge ?

I have a NFB2 and a NFB3.1 on a second system both with the default board -quite happy though. I wouldn't mind trying the DIR9001. What is the approx cost - does anyone know ?

Cheers
Des

[sjay]

Is the DIR9001 easy enough to fit with little circuitry knowledge ?

I have a NFB2 and a NFB3.1 on a second system both with the default board -quite happy though. I wouldn't mind trying the DIR9001. What is the approx cost - does anyone know ?

Cheers
Des

its an extra 20 USD if you buy them at purchase time....it cant be much more than that.

[Conch Blowa]

Approx $25 AUS for the DIR9001 and its easy to fit with steady fingers and a torch to help align the pins correctly.
I found that using a cheap chinese screwdriver with the pointy philips head works best to remove the case screws without stripping them...

[pete_mac]

When I bought the DIR9001 board earlier in the year it was $USD39 all up ($22.50 for the board, $15 postage, and a few dollars for Paypal fees). If you have two DACs I'd strongly suggest buying two DIR9001 boards at the same time.

I posted pics in the big NFB2/3 thread which shows how easy the board swap is.

[davewantsmoore]

What is your budget? Anything less than the audio-gd nfb3 probably won't be much of an upgrade. The internal dac in the touch is pretty good.

This. I would go as far as saying you'll need four figures for a clear upgrade. Auditions strongly recommended. Once you start talking about thousand dollar DACs, you'll start to wonder if the SB is a good enough transport ;-)

[LarryDines]

I aquired the WM8805 version which I am very happy with playing FLAC from my PC but am awaiting the arrival of the DIR9001 from KINGWA shortly.

Sorry, as a newbie, what's the difference between WM8805 and DIR9001? Would I notice anything different running coax from the SBT to a NFB2.1?

[pete_mac]

Sorry, as a newbie, what's the difference between WM8805 and DIR9001? Would I notice anything different running coax from the SBT to a NFB2.1?

DIR9001 supports a max of 24/96 whilst the WM8805 supports 24/192. This is only really of concern if you play 24/192 files.

In my experience the DIR9001 module is more detailed and clearer-sounding (in this particular application). It is (well, was) my preferred option. The WM8805 is a bit less detailed.

[flemo]

Maybe a consideration could be given to one of these?

http://www.ebay.com....984.m1423.l2649

There is a lot of emphasis on dac's, and sometimes cheap fundamental changes can be overlooked in the grand scheme of things. Perhaps a $140 AUD PSU could provide a better performance upgrade than a $300.00, $500.00 or $1000.00 dac in this instance?

IMHO the first upgrade for a SBT worth considering, and certainly the cheapest, is the power supply.

I'm not sure if anybody else here has used this particular PSU, but it is one I'm considering purchasing.

Cheers, flemo.

[LarryDines]

DIR9001 supports a max of 24/96 whilst the WM8805 supports 24/192. This is only really of concern if you play 24/192 files.

In my experience the DIR9001 module is more detailed and clearer-sounding (in this particular application). It is (well, was) my preferred option. The WM8805 is a bit less detailed.

Thanks for the explanation. I gather from your reply you have moved to the DAC19DSP from the NFB2. The DAC19DSP is still in my price range so would that be significantly better for running from the SBT via coax?

[Braddles 63]

Maybe a consideration could be given to one of these?

http://www.ebay.com....984.m1423.l2649

There is a lot of emphasis on dac's, and sometimes cheap fundamental changes can be overlooked in the grand scheme of things. Perhaps a $140 AUD PSU could provide a better performance upgrade than a $300.00, $500.00 or $1000.00 dac in this instance?

IMHO the first upgrade for a SBT worth considering, and certainly the cheapest, is the power supply.

I'm not sure if anybody else here has used this particular PSU, but it is one I'm considering purchasing.

Cheers, flemo.

Good find Pete. I might get one of those.

[pete_mac]

Maybe a consideration could be given to one of these?

http://www.ebay.com....984.m1423.l2649

There is a lot of emphasis on dac's, and sometimes cheap fundamental changes can be overlooked in the grand scheme of things. Perhaps a $140 AUD PSU could provide a better performance upgrade than a $300.00, $500.00 or $1000.00 dac in this instance?

IMHO the first upgrade for a SBT worth considering, and certainly the cheapest, is the power supply.

I'm not sure if anybody else here has used this particular PSU, but it is one I'm considering purchasing.

Cheers, flemo.

John Darko has listened to/reviewed several very fancied aftermarket PSUs for the Touch and found most to deliver almost imperceptible improvements, to the extent that he considers adding the audio-gd DI as a reclocker to offer greater sonic improvements and 'bang for buck' compared to a PSU upgrade. Of course, there is plenty of positive comments out there on the 'net regarding positive results after adding aftermarket PSUs. Food for thought anyway! The TeraDak unit looks to be pretty well built for the price point - it's the one I'd be going for if I was in the market for one. One day... one day...

Thanks for the explanation. I gather from your reply you have moved to the DAC19DSP from the NFB2. The DAC19DSP is still in my price range so would that be significantly better for running from the SBT via coax?

One man's 'significant' is another man's 'what the heck are you talking about'. However, the sonic signature of the DAC19 is certainly different to the NFB2/2.1/3/3.1 (more accurate, less warm/coloured) and I prefer it overall. The DAC19DSP also runs the DIR9001 which remains Kingwa's receiver chip of choice for all of his upper-end DACs.

Edited by pete_mac, 26 February 2012 - 09:04 PM.

[GFuNK]

I have a Squeezebox Touch and I had an NFB2.
The NFB 2 was quite a few more $ then the squeezebox and personally, I didn't think it's cost justified the price of the DAC as an upgrade in that scenario. I found the differences to be marginal.
NFB2 I'm sure would greatly benefit a computer based system or some CD player upgrades, but it wasn't a giant killer when compared side by side with the Squeezebox Touch IMHO.

I agree... Careful here, others will claim huge improvements but I would argue any improvement will be subtle at best... Manage your expectations, bigger gains can be made elsewhere.

[danter]

I agree... Careful here, others will claim huge improvements but I would argue any improvement will be subtle at best... Manage your expectations, bigger gains can be made elsewhere.

Really depends upon your system as to how revealing the improvement would be. In my main system - chalk and cheese - it was a no brainer to use an external dac. I relegated the NFB2 into my office system once I upgraded - nowhere near such a great improvement, but still an improvement.

Re the power supply, havent upgraded the Touch supply, but I did test the Coem supply when I had Duets. The improvement was a real surprise - so much so that I did upgrade to a boulder supply (now sold as unsuitable for the Touch). May well try the Teradak supply in the main system

C'mon Flemo & Braddles - buy and try and let us know!

[datafone]

Totally agree with Danter, while one system might show a night/day difference, another system may only show a subtle difference at best.

[pete_mac]

Totally agree with Danter, while one system might show a night/day difference, another system may only show a subtle difference at best.

Agreed 100%.

[kajak12]

Agreed 100%.

+100000 we should have a sticky

[GFuNK]

C'mon guys, night and day differences!? I'm sorry but I just don't see how that is possible with what is an already very good DAC (squeezebox).

You must be talking night and day differences above the arctic circle in summer?

The old argument your system isn't revealing enough makes me laugh. I've listened on several systems, using both ABX and casual listening. If there were "night and day" differences it would be easy to hear.

We would all love for huge improvements in SQ! Try not to get caught up in the hype and manage your expectations.

[Batty]

We have an NFB2 because my wife picked the difference straight away when Peterpan brought his over for a listen. I find the sound stage narrows significantly when it is not in the system.

[danter]

C'mon guys, night and day differences!? I'm sorry but I just don't see how that is possible with what is an already very good DAC (squeezebox).

You must be talking night and day differences above the arctic circle in summer?

The old argument your system isn't revealing enough makes me laugh. I've listened on several systems, using both ABX and casual listening. If there were "night and day" differences it would be easy to hear.

We would all love for huge improvements in SQ! Try not to get caught up in the hype and manage your expectations.

While the internal Dac in the Squeezebox is very good (compared to older model Squeezebox and low budget dacs), it is easily beaten hands down by many of the latest offerings - and absolutely annihilated by higher end dacs. "Night and day" differences ARE easy to hear - that is why we use the description "night & day" - and "annihilated".

If you cant hear a difference, then save your money, keep with the internal Touch dac and enjoy the music. I certainly can hear the difference - is it my revealing system?, my questionable ears?, my susceptibility to hype? or atmospheric conditions in the arctic circle? Not too sure, but if I couldn't, I have plenty of other things I could be wasting my money on.

But thank you for managing my expectations.

[pete_mac]

If you cant hear a difference, then save your money, keep with the internal Touch dac and enjoy the music. I certainly can hear the difference.

Indeedery. Every DAC that I've heard in my system of late (NFB3, DAC19, Beresford Caiman Gatorized, Emotiva XDA-1, Pro-Ject DAC box FL) has sounded different to the onboard Touch DAC, and most of these are quite affordable DACs. Not massive differences in some cases, but differences nonetheless. I guess it depends what your expectations are.

The differences in DACs are generally not as obvious as a tone control or loudness contour button, so perhaps this is why people are sometimes disappointed? Listen deeper... Attack, decay, soundstage width and depth, timbre etc.

Just as your opinions are valid, so are the opinions of those whom can hear and appreciate the differences.

[Davey Willo]

I've just recently purchased a Touch and wasn't impressed with the sound from it at all to tell the truth, 'I' felt that it may be down to the audio outs not being up to much, even though I was using decent audioquest interconnects from the Touch to the amp, I felt that what I was plugging the interconnects 'into' on the Touch looked and felt cheap and wondered if this were the problem rather than the DAC contained within the Touch itself.

I then did some back to back testing with the:

Touch streaming FLACs over CAT6 from my network, feeding directly into the Denon amp via Audioquest King Cobra interconnects.

Compared against:

A One terrabyte, unpowered hard drive plugged directly into my CA751 via USB, and then onto the amp via some more King Cobra interconnects thereby using the internal DACs of the CA751..

I set the same track playing on both devices and then switched inputs on the amp, it wasn't perfect as the amp kept adjusting the volume down when I switched from one to the other so I had to keep playing with the volume control, but to my ears the Touch sound felt restrained and flat in comparison to the h/drive plugged directly into the CA 751 which was a surprise as I felt that the hard drive option should be suffering more from clock timing and jitter issues than the Touch would be.

I then went to my local friendly West Coast HiFi in Joondalup and they loaned me a CA DACMagic Plus and a decent $120 digital coax cable, I used the coaxial out of the Touch and used it simply to stream from the network directly into the DACMagic and the difference is -> Night and Day for me from listening to the Touch alone.

What I haven't done yet is some back to back testing with the Touch/DACMagic versus the H/Drive plugged into the CA751. I would expect the former to beat the latter hands down if all of this talk of jitter reduction being one of the most important aspects of listening to streaming music is concerned, if not then I would find it hard not to simply plug my hard drive into the 751 when I want to listen to FLACs and save myself the $600

I also want to remove the Denon from the equation and plug both directly into the Meridian Pre-Amp/Power Amp configuration which I expect to help remove any colouration that the Denon may be adding.

Regards
Dave

2 Channel:: Meridian CD and DAC, Meridian Pre-Amp, Meridian 2 x Mono blocks, B&W Nautilus 805's
Home Theatre: Pioneer 50" Plasma (JVC X30 to come), Denon AVR 3311, Cambridge Audio 751BD Speakers: Fronts LR: B&W Nautilus 805's, Front Centre: B&W FPM 5, Surrounds: B&W FPM 5's, S/Backs: B&W M100's Sub: B&W ASW675

Edited by Davey Willo, 27 February 2012 - 11:00 AM.

[joz]

Totally agree with Danter, while one system might show a night/day difference, another system may only show a subtle difference at best.

With some luck, that night and day difference may even be an improvement.

[datafone]

That's it, a difference doesn't always mean for the better, sometimes the difference is a sideways step, or a backwards one.

[davewantsmoore]

C'mon guys, night and day differences!? I'm sorry but I just don't see how that is possible with what is an already very good DAC (squeezebox).

Depends on the definition of "night and day" (obviously).

I AB'ed a squeezebox duet and a NFB2, and was able to consistently pick correct (ballpark 90%). I can understand how people could call this "night and day" .... but also how somebody could object to that. The differences would not be obvious on background music, or a less than high end system.

The comparison was even more stark when using the NFB2 with a different transport (PC+USB converter) ... vs the Duet analog output .... but probably even less obvious on background music / non-critical listening.

[datafone]

Lots of variables, including the hearing abilities and perceptive abilities of the listener.

[kajak12]

C'mon guys, night and day differences!? I'm sorry but I just don't see how that is possible with what is an already very good DAC (squeezebox).

hmmmmmm sb very good dac have you ever heard a crap dac?

[Batty]

Recently ordered an inexpensive Dir9001 and TDA 1543 (4 in parallel) DAC from china, one of the Muse DACs. Should be an interesting comparison as I will have 3 DACs all using the DIR receiver chip. under $50 inc post and power supply.

[pete_mac]

Recently ordered an inexpensive Dir9001 and TDA 1543 (4 in parallel) DAC from china, one of the Muse DACs. Should be an interesting comparison as I will have 3 DACs all using the DIR receiver chip. under $50 inc post and power supply.

Looking forward to seeing what you think of this little beasty. I owned one a while back, and after a bit of tweaking/modding and running it off a 12V SLA battery I thought it sounded quite decent for the price! There's a thread on SNA about this DAC, along with a detailed thread on head-fi with all sorts of tweaks.