2331 replies to this topic

[LogicprObe]

We'll never know why it is...........but all our ears can't be wrong!

[Drizt]

We'll never know why it is...........but all our ears can't be wrong!

Are they the same ears that can't seem to agree on anything ???

[Dr X]

We'll never know why it is...........but all our ears can't be wrong!

Can you say placebo?

[LogicprObe]

Are they the same ears that can't seem to agree on anything ???

What I meant was..........that your OWN ears can't be wrong.
No one can hear for you..........well not yet anyway.
Although, some people are open to suggestion but serious listeners usually are aware of this.

[Dr X]

I don't know why you are adopting the tone that you are.

I don't know why you are adopting the tone that you are.

I don't know why. But I do know it is not because of pitch instability, distortion, or noise.

Just a hypothesis....I could be wrong...I could be right...I could be partially wrong and partially right.

[Arg]

Digital gave us convenience..............not an excuse to butcher music via an MP3 logarithm!

Agreed. Digital also gave us superior accuracy, which equates to superior sound. I can't think of a single aspect of 16/44 or better digital that is inferior to LP.

....More steps but not smaller step sizes which would have lead to lower quantising distortion and potentially less loss of detail (micro dynamics). To maintain compatibility with existing 16 bit technology, 24 bit DACs use the same step size just at 24 bit level there are a lot more of them......

Hi Alan, I am not sure if I am reading this correctly but as I read it it is not technically correct. If your point is that using a 24 bit DAC to play back a 16 bit CD does not recover more data than the CD contains, then I agree.

....I "voiced" my system first with the classic dCS stack (Verdi/Elgar), and finally with the dCS Puccini and uClock. If you don't know them, look them up. They are a good, very "honest" digital source.....

Hi Orpheus, I respect your system (frankly I admire it), but IMHO voicing it at the digital source component is like trying to improve a duck's poo by patting its beak.

I see the reference to "classics from a bygone era", which no doubt is a reference to the ESL57s. I've heard a lot of speakers, and stacked Quads with subs are pretty hard to beat for the music I listen to.....

I am not going to make disparaging comments about individual speakers. I would LOVE to listen to your stacked Quads, Orpheus. It's my hobby. My comment was in relation to the ability of 'legendary classics' in general in the face of progress in loudspeaker technology, and the Quads are not exempt. The classics deserve to be revered for what they did and when they did it. I revere them.

I don't accept that what I like in vinyl is unwarranted harmonics or "distortion". It is micro-detail, I'm afraid, Arg, it is the precise measurement of rate of decay, it is more convincing timbre, it is space and time.....

It is an unarguable fact, if the technologies are understood, that digital *as a format* has more micro detail than LP, more precise tracking of rate of decay, more accurate timbre, more space and better timing.

OTOH I did mention that LP mastering typically involves modest compression, which might increase the prominence of low level detail. And I have repeatedly mentioned that mastering for digital-format product is often butchered.

Sorry, I do trust my ears. Until I heard a good enough turntable, I was essentially against them, because of pitch instability, and distortion. I am not influenced by "myths".

If you are not influenced by myths then you are a god. I am inluenced by myths. Everyone I know is. It is embedded in the human psyche at both the conscious and unconscious levels. The best we can do is to 'out' them. So let me out one now:

Myth #1: I can trust my ears.

Commentary: Only with a controlled listening environment, otherwise the law of placebo will control the outcome. A casual home listening environment is not usable for the determination even of our *own* preferences in hifi equipment.

Yes to me vinyl does sound more natural. ....

And there is nothing wrong with sharing your perceptions with the world, al.

Of course it would be a huge step from there if you were to claim vinyl *is* more natural sounding. Which you didn't do . Because, forgetting individual recordings, *as a format*, CD or higher resolution digital has LP covered on every base, without exception, in terms of being more accurate and therefore natural.

Individuals can prefer whichever they prefer and assign whatever words like natural they want, that's fine! Imagine two audiophiles comparing two setups. Setup B has a deliberate 'infidelity' built in, I don't care what but it is not subtle and it is a diversion from true and accurate and objectively natural sound, and they don't know it. Listener 1 says "setup A sounds more natural to me" and buys it, and listener 2 says "setup B sounds more natural to me" and takes it home. That is the right thing for them both to do. But it doesn't change the fact that setup B is flawed and objectively unnatural.

What I meant was..........that your OWN ears can't be wrong. No one can hear for you..........well not yet anyway. Although, some people are open to suggestion but serious listeners usually are aware of this.

In a controlled listening environment our ears can be trusted to reveal our own individual preferences. In a casual environment, no. Actually, for those with a significant hearing impediment their ears cannot be trusted in any environment. Scientific testing has revealed that such people's opinions on hifi sound quality swing wildly from minute to minute, even when nothing is changed from test to test.

re suggestion, how I wish that were true, but no. It cannot be mitigated by being aware of it.

[LogicprObe]

In a controlled listening environment our ears can be trusted to reveal our own individual preferences. In a casual environment, no. Actually, for those with a significant hearing impediment their ears cannot be trusted in any environment. Scientific testing has revealed that such people's opinions on hifi sound quality swing wildly from minute to minute, even when nothing is changed from test to test.

I agree...............but the only way to judge someone else's system is in it's normal environment.
In fact, as you know you get used to anomalies because your brain adjusts to them like an auto EQ, so a fresh set of ears may notice these immediately.

[Catostylus]

Thank you for elucidating the argument more eloquently than I could ever hope to, Arg.

I wonder if it's the sense of ritual that attracts people to their turntables. I know I missed it when I was without one for so long. I also found the need for a side break for each movement when listening to a long symphony, such as Bruckner or Mahler, very welcome. In a concert hall there would be a bit of a break at those points. The Mahler 6 on one CD played through can be almost too concentrated an emotional experience.

But I know what sounds better.

[proftournesol]

Gee, I'm really going to have to junk my digital equipment and start again after reading this. My CEC transport/Weiss DAC combo is highly rated by the mis-informed, but to my ears it's pleasant and enjoyable but way inferior to my vinyl setup. I guess I've wasted around $7K then:(

What digital setup will trounce my analog system?

[LogicprObe]

I've always had at least one turntable.
Now I have about half a dozen but mainly listen to digital files ripped from my CD's, of which I have far, far more than I have on vinyl.

A few times a year I fire up a turntable for a few days to a week and play lots of records because they sound so good!
But.........they're a pain in the **** and I'm soon back to the computer.

[Orpheus]

Arg, very controversial post. I don't know what you are talking about when you talk about "voicing" my system at the digital component, or why this equates to voicing a duck's poo through its beak.

Quads, like any speaker system, have strengths and weaknesses. I've heard many speakers. The Quad's strong points are not easily bettered. In particular, in imaging, in "disappearing" into the room, in measuring timbre and rate of decay, in micro-dynamics they are very hard to beat. These are the things I care about.

On the other hand, Quads suffer from a limited capacity for volume, and, with most amplifiers, a constricted frequency range. To address that, I have stacked them, and added very modern subs and supertweeters. This has to be done carefully so as not to interfere with the strengths of the Quads.

This sort of speaker arrangement should not be underestimated, though I do not claim that it is the greatest thing ever invented by man.

Where is your evidence to say it is "an unarguable fact" that there is more detail in CD?

It is a bit difficult arguing with you from experience, because you just dismiss that as "subjective" and unreliable. So I'll just stop .

[wolster]

Arg puts an eloquent case but for me, vinyl rules.
I enjoy digital and it is my most-played medium.
When it comes down to a serious listening session, however, the pre-amp gets switched to 'phono' and the lid comes off the LP12.

[Orpheus]

Thank you for elucidating the argument more eloquently than I could ever hope to, Arg.

I wonder if it's the sense of ritual that attracts people to their turntables. I know I missed it when I was without one for so long. I also found the need for a side break for each movement when listening to a long symphony, such as Bruckner or Mahler, very welcome. In a concert hall there would be a bit of a break at those points. The Mahler 6 on one CD played through can be almost too concentrated an emotional experience.

But I know what sounds better.

Well perhaps it depends on your system which sounds better.

[datafone]

Can you say placebo?

I can say it, but even when I say it myself it still sounds like a lame track to venture down

[Orpheus]

I can say it, but even when I say it myself it still sounds like a lame track to venture down

Placebo Flamenco - a cross between Nana Mouskouri and Placido Domingo; very wishy-washy, feel-good singer of pop-opera tenor songs.

[proftournesol]

Agreed. Digital also gave us superior accuracy, which equates to superior sound. I can't think of a single aspect of 16/44 or better digital that is inferior to LP.

Arg, I'm confused. Which 16/44 digital player is better than an analog LP playback system?

[Orpheus]

Arg, I'm confused. Which 16/44 digital player is better than an analog LP playback system?

The Perwenki Restonplatta Omphgapharan. Only one was ever made, and it is kept in the Jonesonian Museum in Plarck. I have had the privilege of hearing it. It is steam-powered, and has Moose derived valves.

Possibly the best playback device I have ever seen, and it sounds OK too.

Measures appalingly, but sounds terrific.

[Bear72]

The Perwenki Restonplatta Omphgapharan. Only one was ever made, and it is kept in the Jonesonian Museum in Plarck. I have had the privilege of hearing it. It is steam-powered, and has Moose derived valves.

Possibly the best playback device I have ever seen, and it sounds OK too.

Measures appalingly, but sounds terrific.

Ah, Perwenki. What an engineer!

[Orpheus]

Ah, Perwenki. What an engineer!

Railway enthusiast, taxidermist, musician. An enthusiast, and, as you say, a gifted engineer, though unorthodox.

[proftournesol]

The Perwenki Restonplatta Omphgapharan. Only one was ever made, and it is kept in the Jonesonian Museum in Plarck. I have had the privilege of hearing it. It is steam-powered, and has Moose derived valves.

Possibly the best playback device I have ever seen, and it sounds OK too.

Measures appalingly, but sounds terrific.

actually it's a serious question, if a Weiss/CEC and a dCS system isn't better than vinyl playback, what is?

[Orpheus]

Well, Prof, you haven't heard the Perwenkii Restonplatta Omphgapharan.Next time you are in Plarck, take some CDs.

[turntable]

actually it's a serious question, if a Weiss/CEC and a dCS system isn't better than vinyl playback, what is?

If you read and swallow all the interesting tid bits from Arg and Dr X. - a sony playstation should do the trick.

Makes me wonder if they have ever heard and lived with a good turntable/phono set up correctly with clean well looked after vinyl.

Cheers

[kajak12]

Makes me wonder if they have ever heard and lived with a good turntable/phono set up correctly with clean well looked after vinyl.

Cheers

My recent visit to melbourne gave me a chance to hear 3 stunning turntables setup correctly left a lasting impression that i will never forget,have forgotten a lot of cd players.

[Drizt]

Why can't you guys just agree that everyone has different personal taste in music replay? Perhaps others would think your digital systems sound better than your TT's even though you think the opposite.

[proftournesol]

If you read and swallow all the interesting tid bits from Arg and Dr X. - a sony playstation should do the trick.

Makes me wonder if they have ever heard and lived with a good turntable/phono set up correctly with clean well looked after vinyl.

Cheers

I actually had a first gen PS1, it wasn't good as a CD player, my YBA was much better (and more expensive). My turntable setup at the time was better though. Clearly I'm missing something, I've wasted money on a Strain Gauge when I could have bought a different CD player:(

[proftournesol]

Why can't you guys just agree that everyone has different personal taste in music replay? Perhaps others would think your digital systems sound better than your TT's even though you think the opposite.

I tend to share your view Drizt, but when others are so sure that digital is unequivocally superior in every way then clearly I've missed something. I like to keep an open mind:)

[Drizt]

I tend to share your view Drizt, but when others are so sure that digital is unequivocally superior in every way then clearly I've missed something. I like to keep an open mind:)

To be fair the TT guys also seem to claim that TT's are unquestionably better. I think a lot of the strongly presented views are actually responses to the other parties. You can see how that becomes a sort of perpetual motion type argument .

[LogicprObe]

This is what the internet is all about!
Pointless arguments!

[proftournesol]

I'd genuinely love to hear a digital system that sounded better than my analog setup, I've spent years looking for it. It's the music I care about. If Arg has found it then I'd love to know what it is.

[Nada]

Gee, I'm really going to have to junk my digital equipment and start again after reading this. My CEC transport/Weiss DAC combo is highly rated by the mis-informed, but to my ears it's pleasant and enjoyable but way inferior to my vinyl setup. I guess I've wasted around $7K then:(

What digital setup will trounce my analog system?

I dont know if thats currently possible for you. Since you asked may I possibly suggest an audition of a PDX with all the extras playing some high-res tracks or for CD quality files you might prefer a TDA1541 double crown based DAC fed via an asynchronous I2S transport. Id suggest a lengthy audition so your ears can readjust from the Weiss technical excellence.

[Captain Crunch]

There never will be a right answer for best sound. If you have a top end system and compare vinyl to digital, you may choose a favourite so the comparison is between sources. However, and I feel this is rarely alluded to in these debates, if you do a vinyl vs digital comparison but use a different pair of speakers or even two different pairs of speakers, one for vinyl and one pair for digital, the result may be the opposite. Likewise with amps, if you switch amps, then another different result may be the outcome - try comparing a Krell to a tube amp for example. Instead of the focus on source comparisons only, don't neglect the rest. The source is only part of the story!

[Rick]

I'd genuinely love to hear a digital system that sounded better than my analog setup, I've spent years looking for it. It's the music I care about. If Arg has found it then I'd love to know what it is.

Arg, and plenty others have also found it, including myself.

You and plenty others will likely never find it because you prefer the sounds which come from your vinyl system. You feel it sounds better than digital.

Some people feel that digital sound better than vinyl.

It's personal preference, and it's that simple.

Some people prefer horns, some prefer open baffle, some prefer tubes, some prefer MP3's.
All these people care about the music.

[darthlaker]

Just think of the the potential of what digital can do today.

Remember what Mr Doug Sax said about 192/24 recordings in my earlier post.

Of course there is very little content but that will increase.

Exciting times ahead!

[Drizt]

Rick just hit the nail on the head.

QED, close thread

Arg, and plenty others have also found it, including myself.

You and plenty others will likely never find it because you prefer the sounds which come from your vinyl system. You feel it sounds better than digital.

Some people feel that digital sound better than vinyl.

It's personal preference, and it's that simple.

Some people prefer horns, some prefer open baffle, some prefer tubes, some prefer MP3's.
All these people care about the music.

[Redman09]

I find it interesting that in a little under 2 weeks there are 169 no make that 170 posts where folk find the need to defend their preference. There will never be a "winner" so what's the point. Personally I think the digital camp should remove their digit and the analog camp stop being so anal.

By the way I find all music be it digital or analog can be improved with a glass or 2 of red. There will be those of you out there who prefer white which could create another long debate. Another thing I have recently purchased a wine fridge to keep said reds at the optimum temperature (again debatable). I think the thermostat is digital. I have also been thinking of replacing the power cord. Any suggestions?

Cheers

[blinky]

I find it interesting that in a little under 2 weeks there are 169 no make that 170 posts where folk find the need to defend their preference. There will never be a "winner" so what's the point. Personally I think the digital camp should remove their digit and the analog camp stop being so anal.

By the way I find all music be it digital or analog can be improved with a glass or 2 of red. There will be those of you out there who prefer white which could create another long debate. Another thing I have recently purchased a wine fridge to keep said reds at the optimum temperature (again debatable). I think the thermostat is digital. I have also been thinking of replacing the power cord. Any suggestions?

Cheers

Good idea. The wine has far superior mouthfeel if you replace the thermostat with an old cradle/mercury 'stat.
Is the power cord pure silver? Copper gives bigger reds like Shiraz a little more pepper and zing but if you want to make your Falanghina sing, mate, it's gotta be pure silver.

Bill

[Catostylus]

I've heard white benefits from cryo treatment but that it's inadvisable for reds.

[davidsss]

I find it interesting that in a little under 2 weeks there are 169 no make that 170 posts where folk find the need to defend their preference. There will never be a "winner" so what's the point. Personally I think the digital camp should remove their digit and the analog camp stop being so anal.

By the way I find all music be it digital or analog can be improved with a glass or 2 of red. There will be those of you out there who prefer white which could create another long debate. Another thing I have recently purchased a wine fridge to keep said reds at the optimum temperature (again debatable). I think the thermostat is digital. I have also been thinking of replacing the power cord. Any suggestions?

Cheers

You trust your wine to a digital thermostat, might as well throw it away now. You seriously need to replace that thermostat, I'm sure there's some sort of vinyl analogue version out there for less than 10K

DS

[Dr X]

Thanks 'fone.
Wondering of anyone else has any experience they want to share specifically relating to High Res (rather than CD)?
The reason I ask is I have recently got into downloading albums from HD tracks. I was fairly sure that these would sound better, or get close to vinyl. This evening I have been comparing Rumours on High Res compared to the remastered vinyl Rumours (33.3). To my surprise, vinyl still rules the roost to my ears and in my system.
It's no that high res is bad, it's just so different (on this particular recording. I plan to try others)

Now to address the actual matter, HD Tracks in general is crap.
I downloaded Rush - Moving Pictures and to my surprise it did not sound as good as my CD.
Does this sound like a similar story to yours where your vinyl sounds better than the "Hi-Res" that you downloaded? Yep!
We've been made idiots of.

Have a look at this: http://www.computera...Tracks-Download
The original CD version of Metallica black is still the best, both in dynamic range and frequency response.
So why do they remaster these albums quite often making them louder before trying to flog them off as "Hi-Res" to smucks like you and me?
Well IMO there is virtually no audible difference between CD (16/44) and "Hi-Res" (24/96) and the production companies know it!
So they are forced to produce something different (normally making the new "Hi-Res" louder) so they actually do sound different.
I'm not surprised teddyboy that your old vinyl sounds different.
In fact from what I've come to learn about some "Hi-Res" and HD Tracks in particular, is that most of your old vinyl will overall sound better, especially more dynamic.

Everyone reading this please click on the link above and have a read!

Edited by Dr X, 17 November 2011 - 08:56 AM.

[blinky]

Yep you can get a mercury stat from an old coffee machine for about $5, or buy the same one, called 'Argento Mist' from Nordost for around $8.5k.

[millsy]

Good idea. The wine has far superior mouthfeel if you replace the thermostat with an old cradle/mercury 'stat.
Is the power cord pure silver? Copper gives bigger reds like Shiraz a little more pepper and zing but if you want to make your Falanghina sing, mate, it's gotta be pure silver.

Bill

Baha, brilliant

[Whatmore]

By the way I find all music be it digital or analog can be improved with a glass or 2 of red. There will be those of you out there who prefer white which could create another long debate. Another thing I have recently purchased a wine fridge to keep said reds at the optimum temperature (again debatable). I think the thermostat is digital. I have also been thinking of replacing the power cord. Any suggestions?

Cheers

I think I've said it before, in blind, temperature-matched tests, people often fail to pick the difference between a red and a white wine

[proftournesol]

I've heard white benefits from cryo treatment but that it's inadvisable for reds.

cryo works well with sparkling burgundies though:)

[andyr]

I think I've said it before, in blind, temperature-matched tests, people often fail to pick the difference between a red and a white wine

I'd guess that blind people who were avid beer drinkers would always fail to pick the difference between a red and a white wine, served at the same temperature - particularly if it was 0 deg C.

I'd like to think that, at room temperature, I could tell the difference between a red and a white ... but I've never tested that theory.

Regards,

Andy

[LogicprObe]

I'd guess that blind people who were avid beer drinkers would always fail to pick the difference between a red and a white wine, served at the same temperature - particularly if it was 0 deg C.

I'd like to think that, at room temperature, I could tell the difference between a red and a white ... but I've never tested that theory.

Regards,

Andy

I agree..........never tried it but it sounds ridiculous.
It's like a stout and a lager!