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#1 Bus_Boy

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Posted 25 October 2011 - 10:14 AM

I was wondering if someone could shoot me in the right direction for some high sensitivity speakers suitable for a valve amp.

I would prefer above 95db, and must be 8 ohm. Somewhere around 5k would be prefferable. I'm currently making my way through the Australian speakers sticky at the moment, and i really like the look of the Creation Audio C Horns :(

I have found a few high sensitivity speakers but they have very high impedance levels also, such as Zu.

I know they are out there, but my searching isn't returning too many results.

Ruling out DIY also.

Edited by Bus_Boy, 25 October 2011 - 10:35 AM.


#2 Grumpy

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Posted 25 October 2011 - 11:15 AM

I was wondering if someone could shoot me in the right direction for some high sensitivity speakers suitable for a valve amp.

I would prefer above 95db, and must be 8 ohm. Somewhere around 5k would be prefferable. I'm currently making my way through the Australian speakers sticky at the moment, and i really like the look of the Creation Audio C Horns :(

I have found a few high sensitivity speakers but they have very high impedance levels also, such as Zu. ;;I

I know they are out there, but my searching isn't returning too many results.

Ruling out DIY also.

I think some of the VAF signature speakers fit your measurement requirements BB.

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#3 Bus_Boy

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Posted 25 October 2011 - 11:19 AM

The Signature line goes a bit beyond what i would like to spend ideally. Only the I33 comes within the proposed budget, and they measure at 90db unfortunately.

I should probably note that i all ready have a pair of DCX G4's.

#4 Grumpy

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Posted 25 October 2011 - 11:25 AM

I should probably note that i all ready have a pair of DCX G4's.

Well there's sensitivity right there BB, but i think they dip a bit lower than 8ohms (6 and lower i think)

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#5 Bus_Boy

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Posted 25 October 2011 - 11:48 AM

Well there's sensitivity right there BB, but i think they dip a bit lower than 8ohms (6 and lower i think)


Yes i'm hoping the VAF's i have are suitable for the amp i am getting. (Earle Weston Topaz) I think as long as they don't drop much below 6 ohms i should be okay, but Earle know's i have these speakers so i'm sure he wouldn't have reccomended the amp otherwise.

I do like the VAF's, but i've just grown a bit tired of them. Perhaps a new amp will change all that, then again maybe my room does them no favours. I'd just like to try something that's a little different.

#6 Teej

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Posted 25 October 2011 - 11:48 AM

How about the WLM Loudspeaker line of products? The La Scala are slightly below at 93 dB, but the Divas (if your budget can stretch) have a 97 dB sensitivity!
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#7 56oval

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Posted 25 October 2011 - 11:58 AM

...................................

Edited by 56oval, 10 December 2011 - 11:03 AM.

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#8 rocky500

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Posted 25 October 2011 - 11:59 AM

There seems to be good things said about the Zu Audio speakers. I think they offer a trial period where you can return them if not to your liking.

Edited by rocky500, 25 October 2011 - 12:04 PM.


#9 houdinifangs

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Posted 25 October 2011 - 12:03 PM

Omega speakers
You can audition them in Brisbane at Audio Addiction

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#10 88pro

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Posted 25 October 2011 - 12:29 PM

I have found a few high sensitivity speakers but they have very high impedance levels also, such as Zu.


Zu Omen Def is around 6Ohm and rates at 98db. Might suit your needs? But I think Zu Superfly (which I have) is more suited for the valve amps. Omen might be bit more SS friendly than valve friendly, although you could drive them with a valve amp.
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#11 Mushroom01

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Posted 25 October 2011 - 01:53 PM

Klipsch speakers would be worth a look. Many speakers above 96db.

#12 lebowski

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Posted 25 October 2011 - 01:55 PM

WLM La Scala floorstanders should be on your audition list
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#13 Arg

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Posted 25 October 2011 - 02:02 PM

The Krix Pix is the ticket, and probably around your budget. Not high on waf and looks a bit industrial, but this is a highly engineered and refined product. The chief designer is world class. The Pix would definitely leave eye candy like C-horn or Zu chewing its sonic dust with their full range drivers. Only other one I would recommend, if you want to take your money away from aussie ingenuity, is the Gedlee, another proper audio product.

#14 Mushroom01

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Posted 25 October 2011 - 02:18 PM

Can you can get Sonist speakers in Australia? 8 ohm & 95db sensitivity.

http://www.stereophi...kers/index.html

http://www.sonist.com/

http://www.sonist.co...istBrochure.pdf

Edited by Mushroom01, 25 October 2011 - 03:15 PM.


#15 planet10

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Posted 25 October 2011 - 03:32 PM

What type of valve amp do you have SET's ,Push Pull what tubes & power rating .


An important question, as it answers the question of whether you need an efficient speaker, or an efficient speaker with a benign impedance curve.

dave

Edited by planet10, 25 October 2011 - 04:27 PM.

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#16 Bus_Boy

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Posted 25 October 2011 - 03:43 PM

The amp in question is the Earle Weston Topaz http://www.westonaco...m/service2.html i think that link should work

#17 bronal

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Posted 25 October 2011 - 04:09 PM

+1 for Omega and Hoyt-Bedford. Within your budget you could buy the HB Type 4s, which have separate powered woofers and have $2K to spare.

BTW, don't worry too much about Zus and other speakers with impedances of 10 to 12 ohms. This actually means they are an easier load for a valve map and your amp could sound more relaxed as a result.

#18 pulinap

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Posted 25 October 2011 - 04:18 PM

Hi Bus Boy,

I use Rethm Saadhana single driver speakers. http://www.rethm.com/home.html#

They have few speakers in their range

#19 planet10

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Posted 25 October 2011 - 04:31 PM

The amp in question is the Earle Weston Topaz http://www.westonaco...m/service2.html i think that link should work


Some strangeness in the specs... Class A & 35 w to start (unless B+ is quite high), says it is running ultralinear with no global feedback so likely has a fairly high output imprdance. Means you want a smooth flattish output impedance, otherwise the speakers frequency response will be multiplied by a factor of the impedance curve. With single drivers a rise at the top and the bottom coupled with a high output impedance can be beneficial as you get a boost where it is often needed. It also has to be said... that is a lot of power for a speaker this efficient.

If i was choosing a speaker within your mandate i'd be looking at Vulcan, you'd have to build or find someone to build it for you. Of course i'd use my version of the FE206

Posted Image

If it wasn't for the efficiency requirement, Rasmussen's Elsinores or his new flat impedance speaker would be a good candidate (the latter limited by the Visaton B200's 89ish dB efficiency.

dave

Edited by planet10, 25 October 2011 - 04:35 PM.

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#20 soundfan

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Posted 25 October 2011 - 06:27 PM

Have you heard highly sensitive speakers Bus_Boy? My only advice would be not to rush in and possibly spending all you're budget on a set of speakers before hearing a wide range of speakers.
Plus one for the Omega and Hoyts-Bedford recommendations.
And although they are seeming to fetch premium prices these days, don't discount second hand vintage Tannoy's and Coral Beta 8 and 10s if in suitable cabinets. Tannoys and Valves = Heaven. :(

#21 Probbo

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Posted 25 October 2011 - 07:14 PM

Hi Bus_boy

I run Earle's Time Machine SET into Zu Druid IVs........which have 101db sensitivity. I'm very happy with the results.

I haven't heard any of the latest Zu speakers and there are certainly other options, but I would suggest you have a close look (listen, rather!) at their current range. (Magenta HIFI is the Aussie Distributor for ZU).

cheers

#22 88pro

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Posted 25 October 2011 - 07:17 PM

I run Earle's Time Machine SET into Zu Druid IVs........which have 101db sensitivity. I'm very happy with the results.


Is it a 300B SET or 2a3 SET you are using?
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#23 Probbo

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Posted 25 October 2011 - 07:23 PM

Is it a 300B SET or 2a3 SET you are using?


300B SET :(

#24 Cortes

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Posted 25 October 2011 - 07:36 PM

Hi,
can anyone explain the role of impedance in speakers run by valve amps?. At equal sensibility, is easier to drive 8 Ohms minimum (or nominal) impedance or 4 Ohms impendance?.

Thanks.

#25 Bus_Boy

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Posted 25 October 2011 - 07:57 PM

+1 for Omega and Hoyt-Bedford. Within your budget you could buy the HB Type 4s, which have separate powered woofers and have $2K to spare.

BTW, don't worry too much about Zus and other speakers with impedances of 10 to 12 ohms. This actually means they are an easier load for a valve map and your amp could sound more relaxed as a result.


I always thought the lower the impedance level of the speaker, the less load placed on the amp, provided the amplifier is stable at a lower impedance

#26 Bus_Boy

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Posted 25 October 2011 - 08:03 PM

Hi Bus_boy

I run Earle's Time Machine SET into Zu Druid IVs........which have 101db sensitivity. I'm very happy with the results.

I haven't heard any of the latest Zu speakers and there are certainly other options, but I would suggest you have a close look (listen, rather!) at their current range. (Magenta HIFI is the Aussie Distributor for ZU).

cheers


Unfortunately they don't list prices for anything besides a couple of PSB speakers. It aggravates me when stores do this because quite often I waste my time ( and to an extent theirs) by looking at something that I could never afford in the first place.

I never buy from anywhere that doesn't list at least an rrp.

Are their any other suppliers?

#27 Full Range

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Posted 25 October 2011 - 08:07 PM

Lowther speaker Drivers
Audio Nirvana speaker Drivers

Best bang for many thousand bucks if you build your own cabinets

FR
FR
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#28 Bus_Boy

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Posted 25 October 2011 - 08:17 PM

Klipsch speakers would be worth a look. Many speakers above 96db.


How do Klipsch do as far as music goes? I've never really looked at them because i've always thought of them as strictly HT speakers, which i have seen a lot of amongst the HT forums.

Also is it possible to get them in a proper finish and not a veneer laminiate?

#29 Probbo

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Posted 25 October 2011 - 08:29 PM

Unfortunately they don't list prices for anything besides a couple of PSB speakers. It aggravates me when stores do this because quite often I waste my time ( and to an extent theirs) by looking at something that I could never afford in the first place.

I never buy from anywhere that doesn't list at least an rrp.

Are their any other suppliers?


None that I am aware of.........give them a call to confirm though...........a number of the models in the Zu speaker range will be within the price parameter you set in your first post.

cheers

#30 Toisich-Jnr

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Posted 25 October 2011 - 08:37 PM

I will be selling my Tannoy Dimension 8s in the near future, listing on this site in the first instance. 90db with 6ohm impedance but very suitable for valve amps. More info at www.tannoy.com & I also have a couple of reviews available. Just a thought.

cheers


#31 Probbo

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Posted 25 October 2011 - 08:46 PM

Well there you go !............let eBay be your friend.........Magenta have a new pair of the Zu Essence for $4299 posted (I have no relationship with them in any way......just trying to help).

http://www.ebay.com....=item43a9d3628b

cheers

#32 56oval

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Posted 25 October 2011 - 08:54 PM

..............................

Edited by 56oval, 10 December 2011 - 11:03 AM.

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#33 RoHo

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Posted 25 October 2011 - 08:57 PM

Hi,
can anyone explain the role of impedance in speakers run by valve amps?. At equal sensibility, is easier to drive 8 Ohms minimum (or nominal) impedance or 4 Ohms impendance?.

Thanks.

A speaker with 4 ohm impedance demands that an amp provide twice as much current as an 8 ohm speaker. It follows that an amp with limited current capability, ie low powered valve amps, will struggle when partnered with low impedance speakers or with a speaker whose impedance dips to a low value particularly in the bass regions.
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#34 andyr

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Posted 25 October 2011 - 08:58 PM


I always thought the lower the impedance level of the speaker, the less load placed on the amp, provided the amplifier is stable at a lower impedance.


No, I believe you are mistaken, BB - a 16ohm speaker is the most benign load for an amp.

For an ss amp, output power definitely depends on the resistance (impedance!) of the speaker. A 100w-at-8-ohms amp will deliver more to a 4ohm speaker. How much more it can deliver, depends on how good its PS is - 200w into 4ohms means the PS is "perfect". :(

However, some ss amps are not comfortable driving a 4ohm load - and blow up if they have to drive 2ohm loads. Others (like Krell) are quite comfortable with 2ohms.

AIUI, tube amps are quite happy whether the load is 16ohms (old-style speakers) or 8ohms ... or 4ohms. They deliver the same power into all these loads ... however, I understand that not every tube amp can handle 2ohms.

If you are buying an Earle Weston amp ... why don't you ask him what speakers you should buy? :P I would've thought your best option is to use Earle's amp to drive some mains which don't go much below 50Hz or 60Hz ... and then use a powered sub (ideally 2) to get down to 30Hz or 20Hz. This will have a cheap plate amp of several hundred watts which will be perfectly fine for sub duty ... and it saves the main amp from having to endure heavy bass duty.


Regards,

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#35 Full Range

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Posted 25 October 2011 - 08:59 PM

HI BB

Give Earle a ring he should be able to put you in the right direction .

CHeers


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#36 56oval

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Posted 25 October 2011 - 09:01 PM

..............................

Edited by 56oval, 10 December 2011 - 11:03 AM.

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#37 Cortes

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Posted 25 October 2011 - 09:28 PM

A speaker with 4 ohm impedance demands that an amp provide twice as much current as an 8 ohm speaker. It follows that an amp with limited current capability, ie low powered valve amps, will struggle when partnered with low impedance speakers or with a speaker whose impedance dips to a low value particularly in the bass regions.


RoHo,

thanks for the explanation. I knew V=IR, the part I missed was that valve amps give low current I.

#38 planet10

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Posted 26 October 2011 - 03:19 AM

Hi,
can anyone explain the role of impedance in speakers run by valve amps?. At equal sensibility, is easier to drive 8 Ohms minimum (or nominal) impedance or 4 Ohms impendance?.


1st off you need to dissuade yourself that there is such a thing as a 4 or 8 ohm speaker (VERY rare at least). Here for example is the impedance curve of the Zu Essence:

Posted Image

With a high output impedance amplifier (a typical no feedback SET or UL or pentode PP amp) the frequency response is modified by the impedance curve.

With a typical tube amp, higher impedances are easier to drive, with less distortion made by the amplifier. Because the output stage is high voltage, low current, you (usually) need an output transformer to decrease the voltage & increase the current. Straying too far from the specified output impedance is not desirable (with the example above you can see that no matter what taps you have at some frequency the speaker's impedance is going to be WAY off.

dave

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#39 houdinifangs

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Posted 26 October 2011 - 05:43 AM

With 35w of class A I think you could quite comfortably use many speakers with 90db+. Depending on the room the particular amp/speakers you also happily use some as low as 87db. There are heaps of 2/3 'normal' floorstanders out there Paradigm, Richter even Adelaide Speakers with 90+. A few of the suggestions here are full range/single driver (Omega/Zu) speakers and apart from being high sensitivity they also have a characteristic sound that is pretty different to the norm (as seen in your local HiFi store).

Perhaps rather than focussing too much on the sensitivity of the speakers a clear idea of the general characteristics of the speaker might elicit the result you are after. For example are you after a linear sounding speaker that evenly distributes frequencies that presents a very controlled sound? Are you after detail and transparency? Are you after imaging and massive soundstage? Do you want bass extension? Etc.

Some high sensitivity speakers require very careful placement and the room will make a huge difference too their sound - factor this in as well...

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#40 Bus_Boy

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Posted 26 October 2011 - 09:30 AM

With 35w of class A I think you could quite comfortably use many speakers with 90db+. Depending on the room the particular amp/speakers you also happily use some as low as 87db. There are heaps of 2/3 'normal' floorstanders out there Paradigm, Richter even Adelaide Speakers with 90+. A few of the suggestions here are full range/single driver (Omega/Zu) speakers and apart from being high sensitivity they also have a characteristic sound that is pretty different to the norm (as seen in your local HiFi store).

Perhaps rather than focussing too much on the sensitivity of the speakers a clear idea of the general characteristics of the speaker might elicit the result you are after. For example are you after a linear sounding speaker that evenly distributes frequencies that presents a very controlled sound? Are you after detail and transparency? Are you after imaging and massive soundstage? Do you want bass extension? Etc.

Some high sensitivity speakers require very careful placement and the room will make a huge difference too their sound - factor this in as well...


All very good questions. I guess i would have got around to them eventually, but i'll try my best to answer them a bit now. For now though i guess i'm just beginning my research and finding out what's out there, where it is, and what it's costs.

Bass extension isn't very important to me, partially because my room doesn't do bass very well. Though i wouldn't get a speaker that's physically limited itself due to it's design. As long as it's capable of going generally low enough that i can get by without using subwoofers, which most floor standers seem to be, aside from a few full range designs.

I would like a very big sound stage. My current VAF's offer a bigger sound stage than the Wharfedale towers they replaced, and it was immediately noticeable. I want a big speaker that is capable of moving a lot of air, something that never struggles and always has plenty in reserve beyond what i need to day to day duties. (something like the Zu Def with it's twin 10'' drivers catches my eye more so than a tower with say a single 6'' driver, but i know you can't just judge a speaker by how big it is and how many drivers it has)

Something that's forte is music, but will still give a reasonable experience with HT (again the Zu looks promising with their range of centre and stand mount speakers)

Something that isn't slow, or limited to certain styles of music because of it's design. Whenever i watch a speaker on audition it seems the music is carefully selected to make the speaker sound it's best, but that's not what i'm doing at home. I never see rock music being played during an audition, it's always something soft, or vocal orientated. The way i see it even a really well recorded soft song with clean vocals, will sound good on entry level book shelf speakers, i guess what i'm trying to say is i want the bigger more expensive speaker to do what the smaller and cheaper one cannot do. Basically they must be able to rock out !!

When you say some of these speakers have a different sound characteristic to most Hi Fi speakers, i'm not sure how to interpret it as i really haven't listened to that many speakers to be honest. Living in Cairns, my only option really was my local hi fi store, and directing a budget at them they could probably turn around and point you to maybe 2 pairs in the store. listening to 2 pairs of speakers doesn't give a clear indication of what "x amount" of money will get me, and i'm definately not going to stand there and choose between only 2 offerings.

So for that reason i have been buying gear the whole time without auditioning. Aside from the VAF's which were at a local SNA'er's home, but i would have bought them anyway without listening to them. i admit i've grown custom to liking to surprise of something i haven't seen or heard. I do put a lot of weight on reviews, but only when they all concur with what the others are saying.

Edited by Bus_Boy, 26 October 2011 - 09:33 AM.


#41 lebowski

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Posted 26 October 2011 - 10:09 AM

Going by your speaker criteria you should have WLM La Scala's on the list. Speak to Tony at Audio Addiction
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#42 houdinifangs

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Posted 26 October 2011 - 10:14 AM

Going by your speaker criteria you should have WLM La Scala's on the list. Speak to Tony at Audio Addiction


Agree - I want to hear em too. Tony also has Hoyt-Bedford and Omega (similar to the Zu's).

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#43 Bus_Boy

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Posted 26 October 2011 - 11:02 AM

Going by your speaker criteria you should have WLM La Scala's on the list. Speak to Tony at Audio Addiction


I notice that the you own the La Scala's, and that you've previously owned the DCX's. Can you describe the difference in sound between the 2 of them? I would very much like to hear your opinion.

#44 lebowski

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Posted 26 October 2011 - 02:53 PM

Agree - I want to hear em too. Tony also has Hoyt-Bedford and Omega (similar to the Zu's).


you're welcome to drop in for a listen.
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#45 Bus_Boy

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Posted 26 October 2011 - 03:08 PM

oops
10 charac