30 replies to this topic

[Grumpy]

My machine has adjustable grind, so i was wondering what grind is preferred.
Is a 'fine' grind a better taste than a 'coarser' grind (long grind or quick grind)?

[joz]

Hi grumps, I always start from the finest grind and the largest dose ( i like my coffee coffee stronger than some) the machine can do then move courser as taste may dictate,this is with auto machines.

[Grumpy]

I'm liking my coffee a bit stronger than i did a month a go when i first got into this addiction Joz
So fine grind for a fuller flavour?

[Rural Rat]

I am not that fussy Grumpy.
White and none seeing as you are offering.

[proftournesol]

Grumpy, you should always change one variable at a time, eg type of coffee, grind, extraction volume and dose. It's best to quickly find a way to fix the dose to a standard amount of coffee and then start to play around with the grind. You are roughly aiming for a 30ml extraction in roughly 25-30 seconds, at which time you should just be starting to see some blonding (the crema starts to go pale as more caffeine is starting to be extracted. If it takes longer than this, coarsen the grind by 1 step, if quicker than this, make it finer until you get this rough extraction time, then you can start to fine tune for your individual coffee.

Once you have this established, 3 things will influence your grind setting: as your beans age you may need to grind finer, as humidity increases, you need to grind finer (and opposite when lowering humidity), and when you change beans or even the same beans with a different roast setting (different moisture in the beans) then you have to do the process all over again.

people go on about tamping but tamping pressure is not crucial other than to ensure that the grounds are level and evenly packed, especially at the edge of the basket.

[ronascension]

+1 for fine grind for a stronger coffee taste. I use lavazza and vittoria beans. Sometimes a blend of both is very nice!

roncoffee

[brettk]

great advice from prof. i find i have to change my grind by a small amount every couple of days as the beans get older. my grinder is stepless so the change can be quite small. usually once they hit about 7-10 days they are fine but since i roast my own i am usually putting the first lot through the grinder as soon as they cool.

i've just finished roasting about an hour ago some yemen ismalli that arrived today and have managed to leave until the morning for the first shot.

[joz]

I'm liking my coffee a bit stronger than i did a month a go when i first got into this addiction Joz
So fine grind for a fuller flavour?

Yep sure is.
But follow profs suggestions,he likes to type more than me.

[Jake]

people go on about tamping but tamping pressure is not crucial other than to ensure that the grounds are level and evenly packed, especially at the edge of the basket.

I have read this view of yours before (on coffee sites) but personally find good tamping can make a huge difference.

Agree with the rest though!

[Mick35]

Hi Grumps,

If your using a presurized basket (Small single hole in filter basket) then the right grind and tamp is not necessary (Close enough will do,just fill the basket with grounds, level off and pull a shot. As the basket is put under pressure, to force the coffee out the single hole. If you have an unpressurized basket (Many small holes) then the correct grind and tamp becomes more important, much more important. Too fast out the spout and the shot will be under extracted and taste sour (Front of the tongue). Too long and the shot will taste burnt and bitter (Back of the tongue). A good shot will have flavour spread evenly right across the tongue, both sour, bitter and sweet, allot of the sutble flavours will be noticable and well balanced.

[Grumpy]

My machine is a auto grind thingo thanks Mick35. I'm new to this coffee biso and was given this machine by a relative and i'm still sorting it all out with very tasty results so far.
I just put the beans in the top loader 'well' and push buttons and I have coffee.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]37139[/ATTACH]

[Super Mustud]

Have I mentioned that Nespresso solves all these problems?

[Mick35]

AH!! an auto machine. It'll do most of the work for you. In that case just fiddle with the grind, until it tastes how you like it. Too fine a grind and it will take the machine too long to pull the shot (More than 30 seconds, will taste bitter at the back of the tongue, may even 'Choke' the machine, you don't want that.). Too course a grind on the shot will run out very quick (less than 20 secs, will taste sour at the front of the tongue). For me I prefer slightly sour at first, so I start with a course grind and work down finer, til I get good balance in taste. I also find I 'Choke' machines less that way LOL!

[Orpheus]

Have I mentioned that Nespresso solves all these problems?

S and M, it solves all those problems OK, however, if you persist with a commercial style coffee machine, experimenting with grind and dose until you get it just right, you will end up with a better cup of coffee. Apart from anything else, grinding just before use, with fresh beans will give you a big advantage.

On the other hand, if you don't get it right, you will have a worse cup of coffee.

[Grumpy]

I must be doing something right because i want another cup as soon as I've finished one.
Still trying different frothing techniques too

[Orpheus]

I must be doing something right because i want another cup as soon as I've finished one.
Still trying different frothing techniques too

Yes, I am not a good frother, as I usually just make a black coffee.

I am still working on the froth.

[proftournesol]

My machine is a auto grind thingo thanks Mick35. I'm new to this coffee biso and was given this machine by a relative and i'm still sorting it all out with very tasty results so far.
I just put the beans in the top loader 'well' and push buttons and I have coffee.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]37139[/ATTACH]

it is auto grind Grumpy but you'll see that you also have a small range of grind adjustment too.

[Orpheus]

it is auto grind Grumpy but you'll see that you also have a small range of grind adjustment too.

See OP, Prof

[proftournesol]

I have read this view of yours before (on coffee sites) but personally find good tamping can make a huge difference.

Agree with the rest though!

The argument is that the pressure produced by the pump forcing water through the coffee puck is many orders of magnitude greater than that achieved by tamping, and that the difference between firm and extreme tamping is almost irrelevant in comparison. I haven't found much difference as long as the puck is level and there are no easy tracks for the water to preferentially pass through the puck. It certainly may be different on different machines though.

[Orpheus]

Good tamping may mean no more than what you are saying, Prof. Even distribution of coffee, and firm application of pressure.

What extreme tamping does, IME, is 1.) Allow you to get more coffe into the basket, and 2.) (Often), lead to problems with the seal, as too much pressure builds up in the basket, and the coffee escapes out the side.

So I think tamping is very important, but it requires a degree of moderation, in fact.

[Grumpy]

it is auto grind Grumpy but you'll see that you also have a small range of grind adjustment too.

Yes it does,. It came set about the mid piont, but i have it set to a finer grind now.

[joz]

Have I mentioned that Nespresso solves all these problems?

How does it cope with a double ristretto ?

[DaveMS]

How does it cope with a double ristretto ?

Easy. Make your regular poddy espresso, leave it in the sun until half the volume has evaporated, reheat in the microwave and voila!!

[cableconnoisseur]

Hi Grumps,

If your using a presurized basket (Small single hole in filter basket) then the right grind and tamp is not necessary (Close enough will do,just fill the basket with grounds, level off and pull a shot. As the basket is put under pressure, to force the coffee out the single hole. If you have an unpressurized basket (Many small holes) then the correct grind and tamp becomes more important, much more important. Too fast out the spout and the shot will be under extracted and taste sour (Front of the tongue). Too long and the shot will taste burnt and bitter (Back of the tongue). A good shot will have flavour spread evenly right across the tongue, both sour, bitter and sweet, allot of the sutble flavours will be noticable and well balanced.

Hi Mick,

I've took delivery of a new Breville BES 820 yesterday.

My first cup this morning was perfect: taste, texture, warmth etc etc.

However, this afternoon, it ran into all sorts of problems.

The coffee wouldn't flow through the basket, no matter what I tried.

(checked for blockages etc and found none)

The only conclusion I can come up with is that the grind does make a difference as nothing else has changed.

The bizarre bit is that I used exactly the same grind when I first used it this morning.........

Any suggestion on what else could be causing my grief?

[Mick35]

Hey Russ,

It'll have a pressurized basket. Take the basket out of the portafilter and hold it up to the light. If you only see one hole, it's pressurized. What this means is tamp is not necessary, just fill the basket to a mound then distribute the grinds, and apply very light pressure with your tamp to drop the coffee to under the basket rim, so the coffee won't touch the group head screen in the machine. If you tamp too hard with a pressurized basket, and your using a fine grind, it can block the series of small holes on the inside of the basket, the coffee runs through these and escapes out the single hole on the outside, esentially the basket has a 'Dual wall'.

I'd run the machine with no coffee, with the basket in place and see if water comes out the spouts, if it does, then your grinding too fine and tamping too hard, back off on both. If water doesn't come out then the basket is blocked. If the grinds have worked there way inbetween the dual wall, then the basket may be cactus. Or try soaking it in some vinegar overnight or some citric acid and water if you have some on hand, and flush and try it again in the morning with no coffee and see if the water flows.

You can get 'Non' pressurized baskets for the brevilles, so may be worth a look.

http://www.breville....filter-set.html

[cableconnoisseur]

You've hit the nail on the head with your observations, Mick.

They've supplied pressurised baskets with the single hole at the bottom.

My problem may most likely be caused by the fine grind and energetic tampering (which worked beautifully with my Krups machine that you've had a few coffees from).

Will try a couple of alternative methods and if it still doesn't suit, will end up with the single wall filter set as per the link you sent me.

With appreciation,

Russ.

[GregWormald]

I do a mod to the double floor baskets--I cut the outside floor off--and convert them to standard baskets.

This works for most Sunbeam and Breville baskets. PM me if interested. It is a "no-charge" mod, with the exception of postage one way.

Greg
PS--the CoffeeSnobs "Pay it Forward" thread has details.

[Jake]

Got home 0400, big night at work. Must eat caffeine, but waiting for Rancilio to warm up!

[19hZ]

I prefer a depressureised basket for my Via Venizia.

For my big spend ($200) I got a used grinder and used basic machine. Once the basket is depressurised, you can start playing with grinds vs tamp strength.

A ballpark of a good tamp seems to be around 1 or 2 kilos of weight (not measured), rather than the half my bodyweight I started with. Grinds should be adjusted for humidity primarily.

Beans can be kept in the freezer if they are good (airtight seal preferably), I buy beans from my local store who has a good range and are roasted locally. If you dont start with good beans, its going to be hard to make a good coffee. Many talk about how fresh the roast is, but I find this variable too hard to work with for changing the grind.

[proftournesol]

I prefer a depressureised basket for my Via Venizia.

For my big spend ($200) I got a used grinder and used basic machine. Once the basket is depressurised, you can start playing with grinds vs tamp strength.

A ballpark of a good tamp seems to be around 1 or 2 kilos of weight (not measured), rather than the half my bodyweight I started with. Grinds should be adjusted for humidity primarily.

Beans can be kept in the freezer if they are good (airtight seal preferably), I buy beans from my local store who has a good range and are roasted locally. If you dont start with good beans, its going to be hard to make a good coffee. Many talk about how fresh the roast is, but I find this variable too hard to work with for changing the grind.

As your beans age you need to grind finer. Optimal age os about 2-3 days after roasting. I find that tamp pressure makes little difference beyond ensuring that the grounds are evenly packed with no air pockets and that the top of the coffee puck is level.

[barelythere]

If your grinder is adjustable, and a discrete unit seperate from your coffee maker then the grind is varied according to the method your making your coffee. Conical burr grinders can be varied from a very fine grind as used in expresso machines through medium grinds as used in stove top percolators to coarse grinds for drip-o-lators. This is according to the info I was given with my grinder, it would seem there is a lot of varied information available on grinds sizes and applications.....

This has become important to my wife and I since we have started to enjoy some rather expensive coffee grinds lately and to fine a grind in the percolator means coffee can sometimes be flushed through and to coarse and its a rather insipid flavour.

The type of grinder you have makes a difference. Ours is a conical burr grinder which spins at relatively slow speeds and produced even and consistant partical sizes. flat burr grinders are faster, messier and produce uneven sized particals. Blade grinders are even faster and can burn the grinds if over used, producing very fine, but burnt grounds.

You then match your grind to your coffee machine/method and enjoy!

Edited by barelythere, 10 April 2012 - 05:30 PM.