29 replies to this topic

[stefan534]

I think I must have been on the short list. Having waited for the much sought after Burson - HD-160 till the cows come home, I have received the DA-160 within a blink of its availability


Initial impressions and soundstage (vs. nfb-3)

...are very favorable. I noticed an immediate gain in clarity, detail and refinement with the switch. Soundstage is quite different from the nfb-3 which comes forward, almost leaps out at you, solid and affectionate. The Burson soundstage is quite different. The entire musical experience has moved back, and subsequently occupies a larger space in the room. This took me by surprise initially, but I now prefer it.


The nfb-3 is like an affectionate Labrador puppy: solid, friendly very easy to like. It comes forward and licks you on the face, even if somewhat clumsily. The Burson is a much more mature aloof sound. It invites you to explore the music with the minds eye. THere is visceral pleasure, but also, cerebral. This was initially disconcerting, but once you occupy that realm there is no going back to the puppy dog. The Buron has much more refined tricks, and can juggle many balls at the same time. Orchestral passages are handled with comparative agility.

The sound is a little warm, but no more than the nfb-3

Jitter
Once you have a device like the Jkeny hiface in your system, you come to learn what jitter really is, and how important it is to get rid of it. As expected the native jitter-reduction in the Burson is not up to par. All the manufacturers tout their jitter-reduction jargon, but any budding audiophile knows or should know, there's nothing like a dedicated unit external or internal to smooth out the etched metal. Since I didn't have a usb-spdif converter last week, I had to endure usb for a few days. Late night sessions with "fidelizer" (shuts downs windows 7 systems) and a bit of break-in have improved things to the extent that longer listening sessions are possible, but the distinct tang of jitter is still present.

Bass ( and treble)
are both excellent. There is a beautiful treble sparkle that highlights, among other things, the leading edge of the voice. From reviews, I feared that the Burson would be an overly-weighty bass like the wfs-1, but it's not the case. The bass is simply good: organic and enveloping in the sense that it creates a solid mature space for the other sounds in the spectrum. The Burson simple does the entire dynamic range with great refinement. In fact, it's the mid-range that might be slightly less refined, less poised, but only time will tell.

A promising Dac

Unfortunately, I have ony just got my usb-spif converter today and with break in of this, the rca-in on the Burson; plus the cheapo adapter I am obliged to use on my bnc-bnc coaxial cable, I will have to wait patiently to test the full potential of this Dac. Overall there is a tinge of harshness and sibilance, but I can't locate the source of it yet. From reading other reviews the Burson should soften at around the 100 hour mark, and if I can gain some more detail and clarity this could be a real winner - and keeper - in the entry-level high end Dac market. More to follow soon...

[John H. Darko]

Once you have a device like the Jkeny hiface in your system, you come to learn what jitter really is, and how important it is to get rid of it. As expected the native jitter-reduction in the Burson is not up to par. All the manufacturers tout their jitter-reduction jargon, but any budding audiophile knows or should know, there's nothing like a dedicated unit external or internal to smooth out the etched metal. Since I didn't have a usb-spdif converter last week, I had to endure usb for a few days. Late night sessions with "fidelizer" (shuts downs windows 7 systems) and a bit of break-in have improved things to the extent that longer listening sessions are possible, but the distinct tang of jitter is still present.

You've nailed it with that paragraph, Stefan. Nearly every manufacturer talks up their jitter rejection, but I've yet to find a DAC that can't be 'lifted' by a John Kenny-modded Hiface or Audiophilleo. <---- until mainstream manufacturers wake up to this, you might as well forget about inbuilt USB interfaces in their products (<$2k).

[bhobba]

Hi Stefan and John

Abso-friggen-lutely on the Jitter thing.

Stefan - glad to hear you got your Burson - looking forward to getting mine which has been delayed because my dealer forgot to pay Burson. If I get it soon - say in a week or so will organize a DAC shootout at my place with the Burson, WFS, JK Saber, Tranquility, Tranquility SE, and PDX Level 2. I also have an Offramp4 to check out exactly how good the USB implementation on the Burson and WFS actually is.

Thanks
Bill

[mikey d]

Good to hear Stefan. I really admire the guys at Burson & the way they have found their niche into the global market by concentrating on their strengths. I bet that midrange really opens up & sweetens in the next couple of weeks (months!). I bet that bottom end will become richer too. Have you tried different power cords to it? What sort of IC's out? Good stuff!

[Currawong]

Interesting to read the comparison. Like the Audio-gd, Burson's discrete OPAMP circuits have a lot of transistors that, in my experience, require some hours of use before the sound settles. I'd take a bet that any harshness would disappear after a couple of weeks of being left switched on.

[proftournesol]

Stefan, using the powers of magic I'm going to move your helpful review from the digital section to the review section;)

[enjoy]

You've nailed it with that paragraph, Stefan. Nearly every manufacturer talks up their jitter rejection, but I've yet to find a DAC that can't be 'lifted' by a John Kenny-modded Hiface or Audiophilleo. <---- until mainstream manufacturers wake up to this, you might as well forget about inbuilt USB interfaces in their products (<$2k).

I think that is why it is a smart move by Alex to use M2Tech to process the USB signal for its DAC than try to implement it himself.

... back to topic.

[bhobba]

Hi Guys

My Burson DA-160 has arrived and I had a quick listen with another guy. First up was with the Off-Ramp using SPDIF. Very good - just a touch of warmth to my ears compared to the Burson HA-160D. But it was thought a lot of the performance was from the Off-Ramp so we tried it via its USB. Surprise surprise - it was actually better which left both of us scratching out heads. So we went back to using the Off-Ramp but this time with no upsampling. Yes it was better than upsampled - but we didn't have time to check if it was better than USB. I now have it in my system and will give further impressions as my listening progresses.

Thanks
Bill

[bhobba]

Hi Guys

Good and bad news. First the bad news - the USB input has packed it in - only the left channel is working - SPDIF still works fine. I took it to the dealer I got it from who verified it and immediately sent an Email to Burson. Now what I want to do is keep it until they send a replacement and use it via SPDIF - to that end I have it in my system right now running off the Off-Ramp. My dealer however thinks they will want it sent to them to fix in their own sweet time. Reviewers generally get the royal treatment so its often hard to know from their reviews exactly how your average yobbo like me will be treated - so this will be a good test IMHO.

Ok the sound through the SPDIF and Offramp direct connected to my Patek amp using Pure Music. Well from my recollection of how the USB sounded for the short time it did work I think it is better despite the initial impression the USB may have had the edge. Certainly the slight 'warmth' I detected is absent. This thing has the slight metallic-steely twang I associate with SS - you know its SS for sure. No valve warmth here. This is rather interesting as my short time with the HA-160D showed a significant amount of warmth to my ears. When I played it initially on another system via USB I could detect a slight trace of warmth. Now on my system using the Off-Ramp - its gone - at least to my ears anyway. Burson are SS specialists and claim they designed this as the quintessential SS output stage design. Guess what - to me that's exactly how it sounds. Not SS apeing valves but SS pure and simple. This is direct connected to my amp. I will give it a go through the Truth pre amp a bit later.

I have done a direct comparison to the JK Saber. Both bass and detail seem better but it does not seem to be as in control somehow - it does not seem to flow as easily - sort of more in your face. Right now I would have to call it pretty close overall. I am not however going to say anything definite because I do not know how much the Off-Ramp is lifting performance. However purely because I do not like leaving things up in the air I will give the JK the edge but reserve my final opinion until later.

More to come later as I listen more and others get a chance for others to have to have a listen and see what they think.

Thanks
Bill

[stefan534]

You've nailed it with that paragraph, Stefan. Nearly every manufacturer talks up their jitter rejection, but I've yet to find a DAC that can't be 'lifted' by a John Kenny-modded Hiface or Audiophilleo. <---- until mainstream manufacturers wake up to this, you might as well forget about inbuilt USB interfaces in their products (<$2k).

Hi Stefan and John

Abso-friggen-lutely on the Jitter thing.

Stefan - glad to hear you got your Burson - looking forward to getting mine which has been delayed because my dealer forgot to pay Burson. If I get it soon - say in a week or so will organize a DAC shootout at my place with the Burson, WFS, JK Saber, Tranquility, Tranquility SE, and PDX Level 2. I also have an Offramp4 to check out exactly how good the USB implementation on the Burson and WFS actually is.

Thanks
Bill

It's been the single biggest revelation since my audio explorations began a year or so ago! Second to that would be the importance of source - period.

Good to hear Stefan. I really admire the guys at Burson & the way they have found their niche into the global market by concentrating on their strengths. I bet that midrange really opens up & sweetens in the next couple of weeks (months!). I bet that bottom end will become richer too. Have you tried different power cords to it? What sort of IC's out? Good stuff!

Interesting to read the comparison. Like the Audio-gd, Burson's discrete OPAMP circuits have a lot of transistors that, in my experience, require some hours of use before the sound settles. I'd take a bet that any harshness would disappear after a couple of weeks of being left switched on.

I'm hoping that will happen. In fact it already has toned down to some degree. I'm leery to leave things on when I'm out for long periods but I'm just being silly aren't I ...


Ah, thanks for sharing your latest thoughts Bill. It arrived!

It's interesting that you mention the USB being smoother to your ears. I found to to be so too, compared to the Jk hiface (which in all fairness I am still breaking in.) However the sound to me is more recessed with the USB, and fatiguing to the ears compared to SPDIF. The odd thing though, is that I can't hear what annoys my ears via USB, but I am going to assume it's an invisible aspect of jitter - a kind of a tightness to the sound.

I can't help wondering from reading your comparison to the 160D, if it's the preamp that made the unit so warm in sound?

Edited by stefan534, 10 August 2011 - 02:12 AM.

[bhobba]

I can't help wondering from reading your comparison to the 160D, if it's the preamp that made the unit so warm in sound?

At that time I had a Leben which was an integrated but also heard it on another system. Yea it did sound warm and this thing when fed from the Off-Ramp does not. I did however detect a slight bit of warmth using its (now kaput - ie one channel works) USB so maybe its a jitter thing - don't really know.

I have now connected it to the Truth and the SS sound has been toned down a touch to my ears and I think it sounds better - but of course its probably a personal preference thing. After posting this will sojourn to my listening room for some further listening/investigations.

Burson got back to my dealer saying it cant be the USB you must be doing something wrong. He is going to pass the Email onto me and I will probably have to go through their hoops before they acknowledge there is a fault. As I said its will be interesting to see how your typical yobbo gets treated.

Thanks
Bill

[stefan534]

Excuse the obviousness of this question Bill, but have you tried the alternative USB port? I would have thought USB 1 and 2 were separate receivers completely...

Edited by stefan534, 10 August 2011 - 04:35 PM.

[Nigel]

I am interested in the Burson DAC and eagerly reading this thread but find i struggle to interpret too many words.
Stefan's 1st paragraph was written in terms i can readily relate to but then "aloof mature", "It invites you to explore the music with the minds eye", then others have added "sweetened", "open up the mids", "warmth", "SS sound".
Am I the only one who doesn't know what the writer is trying to say ??

[bhobba]

I have been doing some more listening. I have been comparing it to the base Tranquility and John Kenny Saber because they are about the same price. I found even with the Offramp it to my ears did not sound as good as the the Tranquility or JK. Bear in mind however the Burson has more inputs than just USB and like the JK allows direct connection to an amp. The Burson, as mentioned previously, has a definite SS feel to it and it certainly flowed in a very natural way if that type of sound is your bag. However surprisingly the Tranquility had even better detail and a very analogue sound. The bass is the usual achilles heel with the Tranquility but I couldn't detect it was worse than the Burson. The JK had a dry sound but better bass and detail than either. My speakers are anything but dry and the JK sounded quite good with them - but on some dry speakers an acquaintance borrowed to check it out the dryness added up and it sounded not good at all. But in my setup I would have to give the JK the edge over the other DAC's. Another person complained the JK distorted instruments but I couldn't detect that. On my favorite test track - Dianna Krall - A Case Of You - the piano sounded natural to me on all three DAC's.

I have a friend coming Friday who has a good ear and we will redo the comparison.

I am also having a DAC shootout Saturday week and will see how it fares in that.

Thanks
Bill

[bhobba]

Excuse the obviousness of this question Bill, but have you tried the alternative USB port? I would have thought USB 1 and 2 were separate receivers completely...

Yes of course. Tried all sorts of things - it is a definite fault.

Thanks
Bill

[bhobba]

I am interested in the Burson DAC and eagerly reading this thread but find i struggle to interpret too many words. Stefan's 1st paragraph was written in terms i can readily relate to but then "aloof mature", "It invites you to explore the music with the minds eye", then others have added "sweetened", "open up the mids", "warmth", "SS sound" Am I the only one who doesn't know what the writer is trying to say ??

I remember a thread where someone asked me to describe warmth - I failed miserably. Really its something you must experience for yourself. I suggest going down to a Hi Fi store and ask to hear some warm sounding gear. SS sound to me means slightly mechanical, steely, metallic-twang - again you need to hear it. But I also recall a discussion where someone disagreed which makes describing this stuff very tough - but is the best way I can describe it.

Thanks
Bill

[stefan534]

I am interested in the Burson DAC and eagerly reading this thread but find i struggle to interpret too many words.
Stefan's 1st paragraph was written in terms i can readily relate to but then "aloof mature", "It invites you to explore the music with the minds eye", then others have added "sweetened", "open up the mids", "warmth", "SS sound".
Am I the only one who doesn't know what the writer is trying to say ??

Hi Nigel. To be honest I didn't intend this to be a formal review of any sort, but the thread was moved here. And it pays to understand where I'm coming from as a listener and reviewer, which is quite humble beginnings really.

By aloof I meant refined versus visceral, perhaps a quality that all gear seems to posses ( for a while?) when you move up the audiophile rung. You tend to hear more detail and microdynamics and then reconsider the songs that you know so well in newer terms? Well, that's my experience so far. Perhaps emotional engagement is part of that too. An analogy might be a juicy hamburger moving to a more refined meat dish with careful choice cuts presented in haute cuisine. The entire eating process is less gustatory, and also about the company, the entire dining experience, conversation, etc. So mind, as well as body. Make more sense?

I should add my review system is Quad 12L and Quad 99 stereo amp. Cheers.

Edited by stefan534, 11 August 2011 - 12:08 AM.

[stefan534]

..........

Edited by stefan534, 11 August 2011 - 12:36 AM.
redundant

[bhobba]

Hi Guys

Just letting people know my dealer contacted me and it seems they are going to replace the DAC. If so A+ to Burson on the fixing issues front.

Will be doing a bit more listening today against the WFS DAC 2 this time. The WFS has greater detail and bass but has a cold top end, is a bit glary, and has sibilance problems. The Burson has none of those problems but it does not have the detail or bass. Previously this swung it in the favour of the WFS over the 160D but I think the DA-160 is better than the 160D with a bit better detail and more neutral and my gut tells me it could be better than the WFS via its USB but using the Offramp the WFS will have the edge- the detail the WFS reveals via the Offramp is amazing, and the other issues are significantly reduced or maybe even eliminated. Anyway we will see.

Thanks
Bill

[bhobba]

Hi Guys

Have the Burson direct connected to my Patek and am using Pure Music. Just finished listening to some Roy Orbison and have now switched to Rebecca Pidgeon Hi Res Retrospectives. When fed with the Offramp it really does flow in a beautiful and natural way and does not have the dryness of the John Kenny Saber.

Have completed a listening session against the WFS DAC2 fed by its USB and the Offramp. Via the USB the WFS DAC2 is soundly beaten. I preferred the WFS to the 160D I had for a short time due to its increased detail but for sure I find the natural flow of the Burson better than the increased detail of the WFS with its glare, coldness and sibilance - no contest to my ears. But feed the WFS with the Offramp - Wow Wow - afraid the Burson is beaten. The detail and bass is staggering - I have not heard anything to touch it. It does not flow like the Burson - in fact its very in your face - but the coldness, glare and sibilance if not gone is reduced considerably. Do you want to relax into your music - then the Burson is the go - but the Trainquility is probably better at it - but does require a pre-amp and is USB only. But do you want something to excite you and whack you in the face - get the WFS and feed it with the Offramp - amazing. Its not dry like the JK Saber either.

Ok I am starting to form a few preliminary views of the DAC's in this price range - the Burson, the WFS, the JK Saber, and Tranquility. Forget about the WFS fed by its USB. If you like a free flowing easy to listen to presentation devoid of any trace of nastiness and would like to save money by direct connecting to your amp then the Burson is the go - it is not the last word in detail though - good - but other DAC's are better. If you like an analogue like sound with good detail close to the best out there (but beatable) and are willing to get a pre amp and only use USB - then the Tranquility is for you. Do you want a very neutral DAC and don't mind a slight trace of dryness (do not try it on dry bright speakers - it will not work well) that has close to the best possible detail and bass - get the John Kenny Saber. But if you want an excitement machine, really in your face with the best bass and detail I have heard the WFS fed by the Offramp will really fit the bill. But I have to say that will cost you $2700.00 and for that price you can get a PDX with built in pre amp that will blow any of those DAC's away. But that $2700 could be reduced considerably to about $1500 by using an Audiopehlo 2 or JK Hiface Mark 3 - but may not scale the heights the Offramp with Turboclocks does.

Thanks
Bill

Edited by bhobba, 11 August 2011 - 12:21 PM.

[Nigel]

Perhaps emotional engagement is part of that too. An analogy might be a juicy hamburger moving to a more refined meat dish with careful choice cuts presented in haute cuisine. The entire eating process is less gustatory, and also about the company, the entire dining experience, conversation, etc. So mind, as well as body. Make more sense?
.

Hi Stefan, Bill,
I had to laugh. Thanks for trying to elaborate but (further) elaboration in sensory terms (taste, warmth) are symptoms of my problem not a solution. Bill, if you struggle to explain what you mean by "warmth" then perhaps it is not a good word to use for audio. ?? It reminds me of the kids at school, you were either the Science/Maths type or an English/Arts type. Never the twains seem to meet, nevermind, not a biggy.....

[bhobba]

Hi Guys

I will be fooked - I will be fooked. I had checked all sorts of stuff to correct my one channel issue but didn't check the Midi. A guy on another form posted he had the same fault but fixed by changing the Midi settings. Well I checked it and that was the problem. Thanked the guy for posting that - now fixed and I can compare the USB to the Off-Ramp.

Now the thing is why has it occurred in the first place on three separate machines including the person that posted the solution and why did it work for a little while on the first machine I tried it on. Anyone got any ideas about that?

Thanks
Bill

[bhobba]

Hi Guys

I was with a friend today and checked it out on two systems - mine and an acquaintances reference system.

The Burson is brand new - of course no real time on it - in fact its been out for such a short time it is doubtful anyone's Burson will have a significant time on it. I will keep everyone updated as its breakin progresses.

The volume of the Burson was adjusted by connecting it direct to the amps via the low gain setting which into the amps that were used is actually just a bit above our ususal listening level and using the dithered volume control of Pure Music or Fidelia. It is utterly transparent.

I accidentally had the crappy cable on both the Burson and WFS. Thats corrected now and the following comments are based on that.

Via its USB the Burson has the warmth I noticed in the 160D. It was nice but once you connected the off ramp the warmth - gone - in fact it sounded slightly bright. Detail a lot better - it was thought via the USB it was a bit indistinct and slurry. Its really is chalk and cheese. But it came at a price - sibilance also greater. However it is definitely a SS sound and how much you like it depends on how much you like an obvious SS sound. Personally it was not my bag nor was it the bag of the others present.

The one that really impressed us was the WFS DAC2 via the Off-Ramp - its so good in fact it right up there with the PDX - but different. IMHO it is a better choice than the Burson. IMHO the WFS was clean, clear, pure and extremely detailed but still with a slight sibilance issue. It was very in you face. The PDX was more natural and real sounding and to my ears with less detail - but opinions on that varied. No sibilance problems at all with the PDX. I preferred the PDX but not by a huge margin - however, while it was not considered chalk and cheese others preferred the PDX by a bigger margin. My friend however preferred the WFS. Everyone however wants to hear the Off-ramp into the PDX. The difference between the JK Saber which also uses a modified M2Tech and WFS via the Off-Ramp (the WFS is much better) suggests the PDX will be lifted considerably. But we will see.

The USB of the Burson is better than the USB on the WFS but for some reason, while both are in a different league the WFS seems to benefit a lot more and was preferred by everone by a good margin. This is very surprising as everyone who heard it has been very critical of the WFS. But it now looks like its real problem is the jitter it is fed - the inherent jitter rejection of the Saber is not as good as it is touted IMHO

Thanks
Bill

[kyrill]

ok people

let's be fair to the Burson, it NEEDS 100+hr playing time preferably 200 hrs to loose within its range, its "mechanical SS" sound

[bhobba]

ok people let's be fair to the Burson, it NEEDS 100+hr playing time preferably 200 hrs to loose within its range, its "mechanical SS" sound

In what way is it unfair to report what we hear without break-in? I have not tried to hide it is not broken-in and have acknowledged it could change. Surely knowing how it sounds without break-in is worthwhile knowledge? And how do you know it NEEDS 100+hr playing time preferably 200 hrs to loose within its range, its "mechanical SS" sound - have you got one and given it that to find out. And I do not mean the 160D - this is the DA-160 - not the 160D. The DA-160 right out of the box is IMHO better than the 160D - not quite as warm and more neutral with better detail than I recall when I briefly owned one. The fact the warmth of the both Bursons looks like it is some kind of euphonic jitter by-product because it totally disappears using the Off-Ramp on the DA-160. From my perspective this is very interesting.

I have just been listening to the WFS via the Off-Ramp and am about to put the Burson in for a listening session.

Thanks
Bill

Edited by bhobba, 16 August 2011 - 04:32 PM.

[bhobba]

Hi Guys

Just finished a little listening session with the Burson through the Off-Ramp. It is not quite as detailed as the WFS - certainly not in your face like the WFS is. Slight trace of sibilance control - but nothing too bad - about the same as the WFS. It really does flow in a very nice way and its sound may be your bag - but its not mine - I like the in your face of the WFS or the PDX - which is not in your face but more natural and realistic to my ears.

Thanks
Bill

[stefan534]

Well, it's a ruthless audiophile world and last week I decided to part with my Burson DA-160, without much to-do in the end.

It does pay to test your equipment with a variety of material and one of my little weaknesses/indulgences is to listen to something quiet and melodic of a late night. This happened to be Hari prasad chaurasia playing the wooden flute, solo. As simple a line of melody as you can get. Lights dimmed, I tried to settle on the couch with the Burson and j/keny mk3, but I just couldn't get comfortable with the sound. My ears were straining from the first moment. Perhaps the jkeny wasn't broken in yet, perhaps the Burson needed more time....

I decided to pull out the nfb-3 from the cupboard where it had lain neglected since the new dog ( the Burson ) had entered my home, and played the same track for comparison. And gosh, the difference was very noticeable. Much greater lyricism with the nfb-3, much more relaxed sound. The execution wasn't perfect, but the heart and soul was there, and the legato line held smooth and powerful. The Burson in contrast sounded tight and thin. The j/keny seemed to be working perfectly. I could just tell that no amount of further break in could fix this deficiency. The strong SS sound that was so powerfully and emphatically rendering MAssive attack and Radiohead was squeezing the delicate flute line far too hard.

I don't want anyone reading this to get the wrong impressions. In every other way I can think of, Prat, dynamic control, tonal balance, detail level the Burson is superior. For anything with a beat this is a formidable Dac - and possibly hard to beat in the $800-1000 price range. If you're into rock'n'roll and looking for a sub $1500 Dac, I seriously suggest you audition the Burson. But to have this lyrical shortcoming is something that I can't tolerate. For close to a grand I want a 'complete Dac' I thought the Burson could deliver, but it looks like more dosh will be needed for a keeper in the Stefan main rig.

[kyrill]

hi Stef

appr how many hrs were on the Burson before you choose to part fom it?


K

have you used attenuators between the MK3 and the Burson? This will also help to tone down "metallica"

[stefan534]

hi Stef

appr how many hrs were on the Burson before you choose to part fom it?


K

have you used attenuators between the MK3 and the Burson? This will also help to tone down "metallica"

Hi kyrill, it would have at least 100 hours, I imagine. Sure, I think there would have been ways to improve the sound, but it wasn't the metiallica that bothered me, it was just a bit of a tight constricted sound on certain material. I didn't want to hold on the the unit for longer to test this as I felt that break-in wouldn't help change this particular nature of the Dac.

I take it you're a Burson fan? What kind of music do you listen to may I ask?

Edit: and in answer to your question, no attentuators as yet but honestly the JKeny mk3 is very smooth with my other Dac

Edited by stefan534, 22 August 2011 - 01:57 PM.

[stefan534]

6moons review. Sarajan acknowledges that the Dac scene has moved on since he reviewed the HA-160D

http://www.6moons.co.../burson6/1.html