75 replies to this topic

[RockandorRoll]

I think im torn

Ive always been under the belief that using a sub for 2 channel is cheating.

However i found i was missing things with the ML1's that i had with the Focals and Vafs that i need back. Everything else with the Ml1's is fine and dandy just need those lower notes.

I added my B&W 608.

It feels like the sub is doing to much, i dont know where the speakers end and the sub begins, i want to hear the speakers, im just not sure if i am.

It just doesnt feel 'right' to me. Is it wrong, is it cheating?

[ronascension]

I think it DOESN'T matter where the sound comes from or how.

The only important factor is ..... are you happy with the OVERALL sound!

[Batty]

maybe an active crossover would help Nathan, and no it's not cheating. Consider it augmentation.

[LogicprObe]

I find people turn their subs up too high or use the wrong crossover frequency.

[Yamaha Man]

yes!!!!!!!!!!!

[Batty]

When using my sub, I turn it up till I can hear it, then back it off a bit. It is only used for HT duties though.

[zog]

If you make your spouse aware beforehand of the new Special Arrangement, and there is agreement, then it's not cheating.

[Keith_W]

Who are you cheating if you use a sub?

[ENIGMA]

No !!!!!!!!

It would be wrong to use it incorrectly.

A sub does for bass what a super tweeter does for treble. I don't think all systems would be suited with subs, all the drivers have to intergrate and work well together.

If you get this right then you are likely to be rewarded.

[Batty]

maybe 2 subs

[RockandorRoll]

Who are you cheating if you use a sub?

the speakers.

its like saying, i love you girls but you dont fulfil all my needs, i need this larger thing to come in and keep me happy - hope your cool with it. Meanwhile they are crying in the corner not getting the attention they deserve while this big fat thing takes all the glory. Everyones laughing and smiling and having a good time with all the bass in the place and the little old speakers that served so well get pushed aside like too much dessert.

WONT SOMEBODY PLEASE THINK OF THE SPEAKERS!!!!

[LogicprObe]

When using my sub, I turn it up till I can hear it, then back it off a bit. It is only used for HT duties though.

Pretty much what I do.
I only have one on my HTPC though.

[Whatmore]

.... i dont know where the speakers end and the sub begins, i want to hear the speakers, im just not sure if i am.

Sound as if you've set the sub up perfectly , enjoy!

[ENIGMA]

the speakers.

its like saying, i love you girls but you dont fulfil all my needs, i need this larger thing to come in and keep me happy - hope your cool with it. Meanwhile they are crying in the corner not getting the attention they deserve while this big fat thing takes all the glory. Everyones laughing and smiling and having a good time with all the bass in the place and the little old speakers that served so well get pushed aside like too much dessert.

WONT SOMEBODY PLEASE THINK OF THE SPEAKERS!!!!

What's wrong with having a big fat thing to enjoy?

[Orpheus]

No, it's not cheating, no such concept, as far as I'm concerned.

Depending on your speakers and the sub (or better, subs), it will take a fair bit of work to get right. I'm about to try it with Aslan's help.

[RockandorRoll]

What's wrong with having a big fat thing to enjoy?

I love how thats all you took from that

ive played with it on and off now for a little while, i think i had it pretty well setup, very hard to tell where it came in so i must have done something right.

it didnt really add too much in the end. There are some excellent passages on Rush of Blood To the Head - Coldplay for testing. The speakers go lower than i thought, the sub just made it a bit more pronounced and then went a bit lower - heard a bit more

ill leave it in for awhile and switch back and forth, see how i go.

[ENIGMA]

ill leave it in for awhile and switch back and forth, see how i go.

If that is what makes you happy.

[Steve M]

If your main loudspeakers are rated to go down to about 35-40Hz and you augment them with an outboard woofer module that is capable down to say 25Hz, why would that be cheating? You simply end up with a more CAPABLE speaker system by using the subs.

A lot of music demands capable low bass reproduction such as reggae, electronica, techno, ambient music and rock not to mention the scale required for orchestral pieces...IME small speakers just don't cut it with about half the music out there.

The beauty of subs is that when the low bass is not required and you are feeling a bit anal about it all, you simply switch the sub off. Personally, I'm a fan of subs as they create a certain 'pressure' and motive force in the room that even the best floorstanding speakers can't quite do on their own.

Regards,

Steve M.

[tbag]

the speakers.

its like saying, i love you girls but you dont fulfil all my needs, i need this larger thing to come in and keep me happy - hope your cool with it. Meanwhile they are crying in the corner not getting the attention they deserve while this big fat thing takes all the glory. Everyones laughing and smiling and having a good time with all the bass in the place and the little old speakers that served so well get pushed aside like too much dessert.

WONT SOMEBODY PLEASE THINK OF THE SPEAKERS!!!!

haha you gave me a chuckle.
Personally i;m a fan of just floorstanding. If something is missing you bought the wrong speakers. But hey each to their own. I came from bookshelfs with a sub to floorstanding so i can't really talk.

[mr-happy-pants]

IMO, 2 channel stand mounts & some floor standers should have subs by default.

[b.d]

It just doesnt feel 'right' to me. Is it wrong, is it cheating?

No nothing at all wrong with subs. I'm busy building another pair to do just 20-30hz because I feel it adds a lot to the music I listen to even with pretty full range mains.

But there are a few ways to get it sounding less than ideal apart from just the gain of the sub. If you can, invest in some sort of measurement equipment that lets you visualize whats going on. You want to know where the ML1's roll off so as not to have more overlap than necessary, and this will depend on room and positioning of the ML1, dont just take the published specs. Also measure where the sub rolls in, dont trust the marking on the subs Frequency dial. Also try different phase positions or just 180 degree phase reversal on the sub, wrong phasing can result in cancellation of the ML1s upper bass. Also try different positioning for the sub to try get flattest response (especially important if youre not using any outboard parametric EQ on the sub, which I highly recommend). Positioning can also improve timing between mains and sub. So basically lots of playing around is recommended.

If the sub is of comparable quality to the mains and is set up right it can only improve things IMHO.

[Paul Spencer]

You have it the wrong way around ... if you don't use a sub, you are cheating ....... cheating yourself out of real bass! Mini monitors sans sub are for girlie men who are allergic to bass. Are we not men?! *grunts, farts and burps* ...

Could it be you've been infected by the audiophile notion that subs are somehow anti musical?

I remember when I first started visiting hifi stores as a teenager. I was underwhelmed by the wimpy bass from everything I heard. Unimpressed by those speakers I was supposed to like. I insisted them demo their speakers with subs. I did get some strange looks, but I'm used to it now ... It must have been a first time request, some of them didn't even know how to hook up a sub to anything but an AV receiver.

Next step is bass traps ...

[coppinger]

great post, RockandRroll.
Torn is the right word. Bass is good, it adds body, even power, perhaps, to music. But so often I find myself wanting to incinerate the bass drummer when the sound dominates.The suggestion to tune in a sub until you can hear it, then back a tad makes a lot of sense.
I started out my exploration of this topic by wanting to introduce lower bass woofers to a two way(dual concentric system)...the idea was to take advantage of the sensitivity/quality of the woofers by crossing them in at about 120 to 150 hz. Not a good idea. The clarity/simplicity of the 2 way DC configuration was lost, with not enough reward. At the moment my solution is to use the woofers only in the sub 35hz region, where the 2 way just cannot compete.
It works well...seems to flesh out the sound, does justice to serious dub, but in no way compromises the mid to high frequency.
Which brings me to wonder...most of us begin to lose sensitivity to the higher frequencies as we age(13khz is my upper limit)...would this perhaps make music appear to be bass heavy because I cannot hear the top end. The horror!

[Batty]

I'm now thinking of a way to hook my Krix subbie up with the Richmonds on my PC

[valvelover]

I thought the goal was to reproduce music accurately? It doesn't mater *how* you get super sound.

VERY few speakers can go down really low. A good sub (I recommend REL but they are pricey) is a boon. Yes, like anything, it needs to be set up correctly. I also do what Batty does. I believe my REL stadium II's go down to around 12hz. NOT many standalone speakers go that low ;-)

And no, it is *NOT* cheating.

Dave

[Paul Spencer]

When you add a sub, you have the ability to bugger the bass like never before. But if you do it right, you can take the bass to the next level.

[Batty]

The Krix has in room spec of 21 Hz, not bad for a 10" unit in a 15" cube, would be good woth the Richmonds response only going down to 65Hz at -.5dB, whereas the Howards are supposidly going down to 30Hz

[DoggieHowser]

I think it's more complex to adding a sub than just buying one and hooking it up.

If you look at Lenehan's design, one of the things that struck me about the Lenehans is the care in designing the crossovers. That also explains why there Plus, PlusRs, Ultra and Reference variants around.

Adding a sub to the equation with some solutions often includes use of a crossover in addition to the ones already in the ML1s.

That's not a trivial process. How do you improve on the ML1s great crossover design. More likely, you'd just be compromising the meticulous design.

I subscribe to Jim Thiel's philosophy for adding a sub. I don't think Thiel speakers are sold in Australia but the first time I heard the Thiel SS2s with a proper augment setup, it was such a revelation. if you have the opportunity, I'd recommend an audition. I think Lenehan owners would probably like the Thiel sound.

With Thiel's design, the subs don't interfere at all with the speakers by default. They run in augment mode, covering frequencies where the speakers can't go.

With other speakers, you have to use Thiel's S1 integrator which allows you to key in your speakers and power amps' characteristics. This tells the sub which frequencies get rolled off by yr speakers and the SS2 goes in to fill in those gaps. Pretty seamless and amazing.

They aren't cheap though, but as one reviewer puts it, it can turn a "Class A" limited range component into a full range Class A component (that often costs a heck of a lot more).

This is the white paper. Quite a good read if you are a boffin type
http://thielaudio.co...b_TechPaper.pdf

It also covers other problems with subs such as how corner and walls can reinforce the sound so where you put the sound also matters. Thiel's solution is remarkably simple. Just a simple measuring tape and adjusting the dial

[joz]

If the bass (sub driver) was built into the same cabinet would it be cheating?
So just because its in a separate box why would it be?
As mentioned earlier living without full response is cheating ones self.IMO.
Or is having full frequency speakers just being indulgent?

[gainphile]

There are technical reasons why integrating speakers with separate sub is difficult. Speakers with ports would be almost impossible.

http://www.linkwitzl...ontiers_5.htm#T

Woofers and subwoofers that can be placed independently of the main speakers must be integrated acoustically such that the direct sounds from the different units add properly at the listening position and yield the desired target frequency response. The accuracy of integration is strongly influenced by the type and order of the crossover function and the acoustic highpass response characteristic of the separate woofer in addition to any difference in distances from the main speaker and woofer to the listener

This is one of the reasons why a properly designed 3-way would be superior, as it would have been incorporated within the design of the crossover. And we're not even talking about half-space to full-space transition yet:

http://www.musicandd...erMatching.html

[RockandorRoll]

Thanks for the replies all

It does sound near impossible to get them working together perfectly, i didnt really want to look into measurement devices just to set it up. I dont think i can tune by ear though, i might find a bass test and give it a go.

I suppose its no different to speakers with active bass units, they are just better suited and dialled in. To me it just seems that i should have bought better speakers to start with. I know thats the wrong attitude because everything speaker offers benefits of its own, but to supplement the speaker with a Sub just seems like something limited to Home Theater.

Is it now a 2.1 channel system? Where does it end? I cant get a good wrap around effect like ive heard from some systems, do i just add a processor and surround speakers? My imaging isnt spot on, do i just add a centre channel? How far do you go before you realise you just have a poor 2 channel system? (just drawing out the idea, my imaging is spot on )

[emesbee]

Don't have any direct experience with subwoofers myself, but I can't see how its cheating if you use one for 2 channel. I would have thought that if the sub is setup and calibrated properly, then it should really act as an extension to your main speakers and only come into play at the point where their bass response starts dropping off. I think the trick would be to get the crossover setup correctly so that you get a seamless transition. The sub will only reproduce the bass that it is fed to it from the recording, so I can't see how that could be considered cheating.

[emesbee]

I know thats the wrong attitude because everything speaker offers benefits of its own, but to supplement the speaker with a Sub just seems like something limited to Home Theater.

I think subwoofers were around before the advent of home theatre.

[Paul Spencer]

There are good reasons for using subs in a 2 channel system - having the bass locked to the mains is very limiting. The freedom to put bass sources where they work best can make a big difference.

Trying to do it without the right tools is like playing pin the tail on the donkey blind folded. Get the tools and it's like taking the blind fold off - you might call that cheating, but I say cheat often in as many ways as you can!

[Phantom]

I say that subs are crap unless you have a pair and are prepared to spend countless hours positioning them and then finding that they position where they work most efficaciously is highly inconvenient to your rightful occupation of the listening room.

If you feel the need for a sub/s, you have the wrong speakers and to a lesser extent, the wrong amplifier.
I just don't "get" why you would buy a pair of very high quality stand mount speakers, with all the intrinsic qualities that they possess and then spoil the whole design idea by adding a 3rd party sub, made by someone else.
It is somewhat like buying a Mazda MX-5 and deciding that it lacks grunt and then fitting the engine with a turbo. In this case, the car may well lack the power and torque of a WRX STI, but it is a completely different vehicle.

I apologise for my temporary divergence into a motoring analogy, but the sub principle is the same. If you buy a particular speaker for its intrinsic sound quality and characteristics, it is my opinion that if you then feel that you need a sub, then you have chosen the wrong speakers in the first place.

I have yet to hear a system that was improved overall by the addition of a subwoofer.
Some were better than others in the implementation and final result, but all lacked coherence and sounded better with the sub switched out.

This may well be controversial and I may even be a misguided fool, but IMHO, subs are for home theatre or "lifestyle systems" like Sib&Cub or KEF home theatre and not for seriously enjoyable music reproduction.

P.

[RockandorRoll]

Thats what ive been trying to say Phantom, 100% agree with you. Your not using the speakers anymore, its something else.

But doesnt it come back to that whole, "chasing the music enjoyment or chasing the system enjoyment" thing?

Still torn.

[Paul Spencer]

It is somewhat like buying a Mazda MX-5 and deciding that it lacks grunt and then fitting the engine with a turbo. In this case, the car may well lack the power and torque of a WRX STI, but it is a completely different vehicle.

Suppose you tried to do it without knowing what you were doing and without using the necessary tools. Would you then be in a position to offer a critique on the value of turbo charged engines?

R&R,
When it comes to bass, the room is nearly always a disaster that needs help, whether you have subs or not. In fact, I'd say getting the bass right is the biggest challenge most will take on. You can buy great midrange, but great bass needs to be tuned very specifically to the room. Adding a sub does add to the challenge, because it's harder to get it right when you have more chances to get it wrong. But if you do get it right, the rewards are definitely there.

My version of "getting it right" involves about $150 - 200 worth of tools, a couple of hours of setup and measurements. Also takes bass traps and (usually) EQ. Sometimes more than one sub. All of this is quite a bit more trouble than most have in mind, but I can't imagine settling for anything less.

Edited by Paul Spencer, 09 April 2011 - 01:34 PM.

[Keith_W]

Great article Gainphile, thanks for linking.

[djb]

ALL recorded music reproduction is cheating.
hey look their aint a band/orchestra/string quartet/singer in my room!
i cheat every time i doNOT listen to live music

few additional comments though, i just bought a pair of tannoy st 50 supertweeters. These r very subtle not like the subwoofers u hear at JB hifi. Almost imperceptible almost.
they improve/change both treble and bass.
will i add sub woofers to my 2 channel system?
NO it would be an excessive cheat!
illogical isnt it?

[Nada]

I like the low bass out of the SGR CX4F's. Its so fast and accurate.

It seems to me that stand mount speakers have a lot of wasted space in the stand. Why not fill that up with bass units that are sealed, active and design integrated into the overall sound?

Has anyone compared the SGR CX4F's with the stand-mount version plus sub-woofer?

[mr-happy-pants]

I have yet to hear a system that was improved overall by the addition of a subwoofer.
...
This may well be controversial and I may even be a misguided fool, but IMHO, subs are for home theatre or "lifestyle systems" like Sib&Cub or KEF home theatre and not for seriously enjoyable music reproduction.

G'day Phantom

Boy, we sure disagree on these points

I have heard many very good systems that are improved with separate subs

You need to go to more GtGs

Graham

[joz]

It seems any discussion about the pro's and cons of subs within a two channel system always (and correctly so) ends up being a discusssion about implementation of the subs.
Like the car analogy, aftermarket mods can either destroy or enhance the original product.Again it depends in which hands its done and the implementation.

[Paul Spencer]

I like the low bass out of the SGR CX4F's. Its so fast and accurate.

It seems to me that stand mount speakers have a lot of wasted space in the stand. Why not fill that up with bass units that are sealed, active and design integrated into the overall sound?

Has anyone compared the SGR CX4F's with the stand-mount version plus sub-woofer?

Good point and it brings me to one more ... the ideal is often mains that are very bass capable, such as those, with one or more subs added. You often get a smoother result that way.

[DoggieHowser]

I have always disabled the sub for music.. even when I had bookshelves. The integration was always less than seamless.

That was until I heard the Thiels. Have a listen to Thiel SS2/3.7s combo when you get the chance. (well, I'll move to BNE in a couple of months so maybe I can set up a small meetup)

When I was in the midst of packing, I unhooked the SS2 sub thinking I could live with the 3.7s for low end, which was able to go down to the 32Hz, but I ended up putting the sub back cos of what I was missing.

[Nada]

Good point and it brings me to one more ... the ideal is often mains that are very bass capable, such as those, with one or more subs added. You often get a smoother result that way.

The SGR CX4F are actually designed for sub-woofer integration.

Being so inexperienced I can only imagine that would be wanted by home cinema buffs that want to simulate earthquakes in their lounge and annoy the entire street.