48 replies to this topic

[Craigandkim]

Just wanted to convey my thanks to Philip for spending a leisurely 1 & 1/2 hours auditioning these very impressive speakers with me.

Immediate thoughts - I wish I could have bought right there and then.

Honestly, these speakers punch well above their weight in regards to their price point. I have no reservations in the ability of these new versions to tango with speakers parading in the $20-25K range. I have previously auditioned 802D's, BE-1037's and TC-70X's.

The bass reproduction, imaging and detail are absolutely superb. During the audition I listened to my compilation MFSL test disc and Philips compilation disc. Instruments and voices were very convincingly rendered, great separation and the front sound stage was enormous.

If you, like myself are in the market for new speakers you need to make sure you either get to ADL, MELB or SYD (very soon I believe - is this right Philip?) to audition them...

Cheers

Craig

PS: My test disc included the likes of Cat Stevens, Lennon, Orbison, Bryan Adams, U2 and Guns "n Roses

Edited by Craigandkim, 03 April 2010 - 06:08 PM.
add PS

[Phantom]

Hi Craig. I must be honest and say that your opinion of these being competetive with speakers @ $20-25K is interesting.
The speakers I have heard in that price range were almost beyond description and had an OMG factor of amazing proprotions. IMHO the I-93 is not anywhere near this level, but it just shows how much fun our audio journey is because everyone has different and equally valid experiences.
Cool that you liked them so much.

Have fun.

Phantom.

[Grumpy]

Thanks for your report on those great speakers Craig - So! are you buying?

[RockandorRoll]

I agree they are impressive speakers, i heard them not long ago when i was testing the i-91.

I dont know if i would buy them though, sure they were awesome but how much more awesome can they get, i would have to hear a lot more before i made a decision.

[Craigandkim]

Hi Craig. I must be honest and say that your opinion of these being competetive with speakers @ $20-25K is interesting.
The speakers I have heard in that price range were almost beyond description and had an OMG factor of amazing proprotions. IMHO the I-93 is not anywhere near this level, but it just shows how much fun our audio journey is because everyone has different and equally valid experiences.
Cool that you liked them so much.

Have fun.

Phantom.

Hey Phantom,
sure is a journey, and in this case when I compared my notes from the 802D(RRP $22K) audition, in comparison they were lacking in the bass department and didn't seem to extract the same amount of detail.

The Mk II's were being driven by an ARCAM AVR-600 where as the B&W's were being driven by a Krell 2250 - not sure how much difference this would make.

Anyway these were just my observations on the day - I have come to the conclusion that I'd prefer the I-93 MkII's over the 802D's. They certainly held their own.

Cheers

[Craigandkim]

Thanks for your report on those great speakers Craig - So! are you buying?

Hey Grumpy,
they are on my short list that's for certain.

[Phantom]

Hi Craig.
That is really interesting about the different amps and the Krell should, in theory, be far better than the Arcam.
However, I am no great fan of the B&Ws and they are wildly over priced IMO.
Just curious if you have heard the Usher CP 8571-II. From memory they are about $11.5K and I will never forget when I heard them. They were just amazing and I almost had to be dragged out of the listening room. They were demonstrated with the Usher pre and power amps and IIRC these weren't all that expensive. I was told that they aren't amp fussy given their class and size and I would absolutely recommend an audition. FWIW they are the best speakers I have heard and are cheap at this price.
If I had the $$$ I would buy them in a heartbeat.

Cheers.

Hey Phantom,
sure is a journey, and in this case when I compared my notes from the 802D(RRP $22K) audition, in comparison they were lacking in the bass department and didn't seem to extract the same amount of detail.

The Mk II's were being driven by an ARCAM AVR-600 where as the B&W's were being driven by a Krell 2250 - not sure how much difference this would make.

Anyway these were just my observations on the day - I have come to the conclusion that I'd prefer the I-93 MkII's over the 802D's. They certainly held their own.

Cheers

[Craigandkim]

Thanks Phantom,

I've not auditioned any of the Usher range but will seek them out next time in Sydney.

They are a great looking speaker.

Cheers

[Young Skywalker]

The Mk II's were being driven by an ARCAM AVR-600 where as the B&W's were being driven by a Krell 2250 - not sure how much difference this would make.

You are forgetting the biggest variable of all between the two auditions Craig...... the room (also source). Sure a well engineered speaker can reveal much of itself (or as little as the case should be) in most rooms if properly setup but there is no guarantee that this is the case in most retail environments. A better idea might be to listen to the speakers in the homes of owners who have had the time and patience to extract the most from each design. The breadth of SNA should be a good resource for arranging this.

Best of luck with it all.

YS

[Craigandkim]

You are forgetting the biggest variable of all between the two auditions Craig...... the room (also source). Sure a well engineered speaker can reveal much of itself (or as little as the case should be) in most rooms if properly setup but there is no guarantee that this is the case in most retail environments. A better idea might be to listen to the speakers in the homes of owners who have had the time and patience to extract the most from each design. The breadth of SNA should be a good resource for arranging this.

Best of luck with it all.

YS

Hi YS,

not quite forgetting- taking into a/c the size of the rooms and furnishings.

However, yes I do appreciate the largest shift in sound quality will be found between the speaker and it's interaction with physical room boundaries hence creating the sonic signature of the room by way of speaker placement, size and physical properties of the room and it's internal characteristics (furnishings etc).

Unfortunately the same scenario probably presents itself with owners of speakers in their homes- same speaker, different room = different response.

The only way I could imagine of getting a true comparison is to have all the shortlisted speakers placed in my listening room on the same mark with the same equipment feeding them (mmmmmm food for thought.....I wonder which distributor or manufacturer would entertain that idea?)

Thanks for the idea

[bluedog]

IMHO people get far to rapped up with the price tag on any given audio component.I have listened to some very expensive speakers and set ups walked out and thought s#$t that was horrible.I have just picked up a set of second hand Vaf i93s mark 1 and am sitting while typing listening to them thinking man i must be one lucky bugger with a beautiful wife .I replaced my I66s which are also great speakers once again IMHO but if you like good honest sound they are a must listen i think.If you pair them up as i have done with perreaux gear where there saying is "the perfect re-creation of a musical event".Along with vaf one should be getting fairly close love it :love

[Vladimir Freddie]

The only way I could imagine of getting a true comparison is to have all the shortlisted speakers placed in my listening room on the same mark with the same equipment feeding them (mmmmmm food for thought.....I wonder which distributor or manufacturer would entertain that idea?)

Thanks for the idea

I agree that listening to the speakers is in your own room is the ideal. I used to have a fairly good relationship with a retailer - he did drop off my speakers for an overnight evaluation. No deposit, no questions asked! But I had spent a fair amount at this store previously at the time. So it might pay to ask - you never know. Perhaps some that will might want a refundable deposit?

BTW I think that putting new speakers exactly where old speakers are will narrow down things for a comparison, but the new ones may not sound best there!

Cheers
Dave

Edited by Vladimir Freddie, 08 April 2010 - 10:25 PM.
can't type!

[Vladimir Freddie]

I've also heard the I-93s driven by the AVR600 @ VAF recently. Quite simply it was the best and most enjoyable surround experience I've had.

To put things in perspective I've also walked away from a HT system comprised amongst other things: Halcro Monoblocks and Focal Grand Utopias and left feeling a let down!

Pity I really don't have the room for the I-93s or resources for the Arcam or I would buy them, and I mean right now..... And yes I have a "baby" 2 channel Krell which would be on notice if it was in an ideal world and funds allowing

Cheers
Dave

Edited by Vladimir Freddie, 08 April 2010 - 10:26 PM.

[bluedog]

Well a week in now with the new vafs and WOW. I must have had a phase out in the speaker wireing because i had the sparkie around to sort out the surrounds with a nice face plate etc and took the time to rewire my whole rig.I was getting a slightly harsh top end and a wooly bottom when i first plugged them in but now it is as tight and fast as i had hoped .If the Mark1s sound this good i would say that the mark 11s must be totaly unreal.They are just so effortless, the i66s were very good but not in the same class IMHO

[PCORF]

I was walking down Nth Terrace, the deafening sound of traffic was endless. As I entered VAF it was quiet and met Phillip and he is a real nice and friendly person. We had a real good chat. But it wasn't quiet for long as my ears were about to take a pounding. But what a pounding it was.

I then had a listen to the new I-93's inside the room in the right corner of the showroom to the right of the office and I must say they were perfectly accurate. You could hear every note perfectly and not only that, the imaging was superb. These speakers also had the I-66 and a huge I-93 centre channel sitting on top of the SW19 sub. A couple of I-91's on stands in the back of the room looked minature although they look imposing in my bedroom. There were also two gutted/empty I-93 series 1 cabinets in the room with no drivers and even without drivers they still weighed alot.

The signature series was amazing, superb with movies and brilliant with music. I dare to dream.

[HomeTheatre4Dummies]

Your dream will turn into a nightmare if you don't check out DYNAUDIO speakers.

[MrHorsepower]

Your dream will turn into a nightmare if you don't check out DYNAUDIO speakers.

If you are in KENT TOWN and trying to steer potential customers away from VAF you must be the "ANTIVAF" ?

[Craigandkim]

Your dream will turn into a nightmare if you don't check out DYNAUDIO speakers.

I'd be interested in knowing what model you would compare against the I-93 MkII?

[rantan]

Your dream will turn into a nightmare if you don't check out DYNAUDIO speakers.

Yeahright! Don't forget your dream will end up like the nightmare on Elm Street, if you buy on someone's opinion alone

Edited by rantan, 20 May 2010 - 07:22 PM.

[nofixedaddress]

Your dream will turn into a nightmare if you don't check out DYNAUDIO speakers.

Very strange

Would you like to expand on that?

NFA

[HomeTheatre4Dummies]

This is exactly what my point is. Just because you say something negative about 'vaf' ALL 'vaf' customers come out and justify their speakers. I would put you guys in the BOSE category. We all know that or should I say those that knows hifi knows that BOSE is very very average but yet people still buy them. Because they don't know any better or are just... .Anyway do you know where the drivers in your DCX are made? Do you know why they put felts all over the speaker? Phone vaf & they will explain them to you & then you can post on here.

[warnsey1]

I don't actually think you have much of a point.

Your Bose analogy is also flawed. Your assuming BOSE consumers are buying on the pretense of sound quality. I'd say most BOSE customers are buying for Aesthetics, ease of use and reputation of quality, with absolute audio quality coming in last. BOSE is very smart and caters for a specific market, not the audiophile one.

Edited by warnsey1, 24 May 2010 - 10:54 PM.

[MrHorsepower]

This is exactly what my point is. Just because you say something negative about 'vaf' ALL 'vaf' customers come out and justify their speakers. I would put you guys in the BOSE category. We all know that or should I say those that knows hifi knows that BOSE is very very average but yet people still buy them. Because they don't know any better or are just... .Anyway do you know where the drivers in your DCX are made? Do you know why they put felts all over the speaker? Phone vaf & they will explain them to you & then you can post on here.

I think you need to open up a bit and explain yourself to avoid coming across as an agitator!

[HomeTheatre4Dummies]

I'd be interested in knowing what model you would compare against the I-93 MkII?

I would put the Dynaudio EXCITE X36 or FOCUS 220 or 360 or CONTOUR 1.4, 3.4 & 5.4.
If you are in the market for any decent speakers you would know Dynaudio.

[HomeTheatre4Dummies]

I think you need to open up a bit and explain yourself to avoid coming across as an agitator!

I am just a passionate audiophile and I want to educate people like yourself and others out there that don't get caught up with the hype. Let the speakers talk to you...

[Grumpy]

Anyway do you know where the drivers in your DCX are made? Do you know why they put felts all over the speaker?.

No, I don't know where their drivers come from, why don't you just tell us seeing that you seem to know all about VAF.
Does it really matter where a driver comes from if the sound of the 'whole' is to ones liking?
I compared the DCX's to another Adelaide made speaker and a couple from the UK and for the money, at the time. the VAF's were the best fit for me.
So I don't give a toss where certain parts of my speakers comes from.

[Grumpy]

Changed my mind and self deleted.

[Tony C]

Self moderation Grumpy.
You might be setting yourself up for a new job opportunity with the forum.
TC

[Grumpy]

Self moderation Grumpy.
You might be setting yourself up for a new job opportunity with the forum.
TC

G'day Tony. no mate, I don't think so.

[Vladimir Freddie]

This is exactly what my point is. Just because you say something negative about 'vaf' ALL 'vaf' customers come out and justify their speakers. I would put you guys in the BOSE category. We all know that or should I say those that knows hifi knows that BOSE is very very average but yet people still buy them. Because they don't know any better or are just... .Anyway do you know where the drivers in your DCX are made? Do you know why they put felts all over the speaker? Phone vaf & they will explain them to you & then you can post on here.

Yes, I do know why VAF put felt around the drivers. Pretty much the same reason as Duntech, Sonique (as well as Dunlavy used to). If you are using first order crossovers with drivers stepped back into the box so they are time aligned something it needs to absorb diffraction effects. I don't own DCXs.

Dynaudio do make some excellent speakers. But I prefer the sound of the speakers that I have in my system. Not better or worse, simply the ones I prefer.

But in any case why do you need to know any of this to find out which speaker you prefer?
Surely the only criteria for deciding which speaker you prefer is to listen to them?

Cheers

Edited by Vladimir Freddie, 25 May 2010 - 11:36 AM.
can't spell

[Vladimir Freddie]

The other point is that if you really want to promote Dynaudio I'm thinking that perhaps the "VAF forum" isn't the most appropriate forum?

[mikizee]

This is exactly what my point is. Just because you say something negative about 'vaf' ALL 'vaf' customers come out and justify their speakers. I would put you guys in the BOSE category. We all know that or should I say those that knows hifi knows that BOSE is very very average but yet people still buy them. Because they don't know any better or are just... .Anyway do you know where the drivers in your DCX are made? Do you know why they put felts all over the speaker? Phone vaf & they will explain them to you & then you can post on here.

I am a 'vaf' customer and have no need to justify my speakers. They jusitfy themselves. To say you would put me in the BOSE category, well I find that highly offensive. I'm scratching to find out where you are coming from. Many vaf customers including myself come from the audio engineering world, where high quality and accurate speakers are a necessity.... you wouldn't find BOSE speakers in any recording or mastering studio as you do VAF. You seem to insinuate that vaf customers buy for the name or the image and have no idea about audio.

Comparing BOSE to VAF is like comparing a Kia Cerato to an Aston Martin DB9.

[Vladimir Freddie]

I am a 'vaf' customer and have no need to justify my speakers. They jusitfy themselves. To say you would put me in the BOSE category, well I find that highly offensive. I'm scratching to find out where you are coming from. Many vaf customers including myself come from the audio engineering world, where high quality and accurate speakers are a necessity.... you wouldn't find BOSE speakers in any recording or mastering studio as you do VAF. You seem to insinuate that vaf customers buy for the name or the image and have no idea about audio.

Comparing BOSE to VAF is like comparing a Kia Cerato to an Aston Martin DB9.

+1
I couldn't agree more

[bluedog]

Excite X36

Excite X32Excite X16Excite X12Excite X22 CenterSensitivity89 dB (2,83 V/1 m)87 dB (2,83 V/1 m)87 dB (2,83 V/1 m)86 dB (2,83 V/1 m)86 dB (2,83 V/1 m) IEC Power handling 250 W200 W150 W150 W150 W Impedance4 Ohms4 Ohms4 Ohms4 Ohms4 Ohms Frequency Response35 Hz–23 kHz (± 3 dB) 37 Hz–23 kHz (± 3 dB) 40 Hz–23 kHz (± 3 dB) 50 Hz–23 kHz (± 3 dB) 58 Hz–23 kHz (± 3 dB) Box Principle3-way bass-reflex2-way bass-reflex2-way bass-reflex2-way bass-reflex2-way bass-reflex Crossover Frequency500/2000 Hz1800 Hz1800 Hz2000 Hz1800 Hz Weight23.5 kg17.2 kg9.0 kg6.5 kg7.0 kg Dimensions (W x H x D) 205 x 1040 x 310 mm

8.1 x 40.9 x 12.2"170 x 920 x 270 mm

6.7 x 36.2 x 10.6"205 x 350 x 290 mm

8.1 x 13.8 x 11.4"170 x 285 x 255 mm

6.7 x 11.2 x 10"500 x 130 x 210 mm

19.7 x 5.1 x 8.3"


I am at a loss to see how i speaker with these specifications can be compared to the I93's for the life of me

[bluedog]

Opps my copy paste failed google and have a look. 35hz-23khz ? v 17kh-21khz 250 watt rms v 500 watt and 23.5kg v 100 kg ummm still dont get how they could be in the same ball park?

[Craigandkim]

I would put the Dynaudio EXCITE X36 or FOCUS 220 or 360 or CONTOUR 1.4, 3.4 & 5.4.
If you are in the market for any decent speakers you would know Dynaudio.

Hi ya HT4D,

I'm quite aware of Dynaudio speakers and the quality they exude. I can see why you would suggest them.

However in this instance I believe that the models you have pitted against the I-93's may be best compared to the likes of VAF DC-X's.

In the Dynaudio range I'd be looking at the Confidence series, most probably the C4 to try and match the some of extensive bass reproduction exhibited by the I-93. And as you well know the C4s are in excess of $20k.

Obviously each to their own with particular tastes, but I want a full range speakers capable of reproducing most of the audible spectrum (and yes 20hz is achievable from few comparatively priced speakers). Thanks for your suggestion.

Cheers

Edited by Craigandkim, 26 May 2010 - 09:25 PM.
spelling

[bluedog]

Just wanted to convey my thanks to Philip for spending a leisurely 1 & 1/2 hours auditioning these very impressive speakers with me.

Immediate thoughts - I wish I could have bought right there and then.

Honestly, these speakers punch well above their weight in regards to their price point. I have no reservations in the ability of these new versions to tango with speakers parading in the $20-25K range. I have previously auditioned 802D's, BE-1037's and TC-70X's.

The bass reproduction, imaging and detail are absolutely superb. During the audition I listened to my compilation MFSL test disc and Philips compilation disc. Instruments and voices were very convincingly rendered, great separation and the front sound stage was enormous.

If you, like myself are in the market for new speakers you need to make sure you either get to ADL, MELB or SYD (very soon I believe - is this right Philip?) to audition them...

Cheers

Craig

PS: My test disc included the likes of Cat Stevens, Lennon, Orbison, Bryan Adams, U2 and Guns "n Roses

Hi Craig i to was at a mates place that is a long time audiophile and i just don't get the B&W sound, i have heard a few comment on the Vafs being "bright" well after an afternoon listening to some 803d's i found it really nice to come back to mine and listen with a mate to some of the same albums we had tried on the B&W's. I am not saying the B&W were bad at all, on some of the material we listened to was just heavenly but some of the disc's that i had just bought and loved on my system sounded bright and very base less. The weird thing is i could swear i hear bits in the mix on the vafs that i couldn't on the B&W's and yet my mate that came with me thought my speaker sounded a bit lifeless in the upper registers but the base was far superior. I would love to one day get and have a listen to the new mark 11 as from what i am reading i would say that maybe that top end is going to be up there with the diamond tweeter ? if so i would think they should be a similar sound to maybe the Watt puppy's ? Hopefully i know they were special speakers IMHO. The other thing that may have been at play was the B&W's were on a pair of EAR valve amps and my Mark1 93's on a solid state Perreaux but then i would have thought the opposite of what i heard would have happened ie the valves a bit softer and warmer sounding and the solid state harsher. I was speaking to the guys at perreaux this morning about my pre amp and they were saying that they had a few customers over here in NZ that are using Vaf's with really spectacular results i for one can vouch for that. but by the sound of it there is no one selling them in Australia ? Maybe Philip should try one might like them too and sell them in aus ? just a thought.

[Keith_W]

Hi bluedog, I think that would be a very accurate summary of the difference between the two speakers. People who prefer the B&W sound will find the VAF's too bright. OTOH, people who prefer the VAF sound will find the B&W's lifeless. I think it all comes down to the music that you play. With my type of music and my taste, my preference would be towards a brighter top end. So the VAF's would be my choice - however I can see why some people would prefer B&W's.

[wolster]

I would put the Dynaudio EXCITE X36 or FOCUS 220 or 360 or CONTOUR 1.4, 3.4 & 5.4.
If you are in the market for any decent speakers you would know Dynaudio.

As you are a new member on SNA, I would interested to know if you work in the industry, particularly in view of your member name.
Would you care to respond?

Cheers
wolster

[Peter the Greek]

Wow, glad I didn't read this thread before (you just cant compare the I93's to those mentioned, really - have some respect).......one thing I will say though is that accurate sound reproduction is accurate sound reproduction, this crap about a soft v bright sounding speaker is garbage, they're either accurate or they're not - if you dont like accurate reproduction buy your B&Ws from Len Wallis and brag to your mates, the rest of us will be happy we didn't.

The Vaf's have their short comings, but only when compared to those twice the price - and that's serious coin we're talking about (well these days it is)

[Tony M]

Hi bluedog, I think that would be a very accurate summary of the difference between the two speakers. People who prefer the B&W sound will find the VAF's too bright. OTOH, people who prefer the VAF sound will find the B&W's lifeless. I think it all comes down to the music that you play. With my type of music and my taste, my preference would be towards a brighter top end. So the VAF's would be my choice - however I can see why some people would prefer B&W's.

But, Keith, Bluedog seems to have experienced the exact opposite. He seems to have found the 803d's too bright and his mate thought Bluedog's VAF's were "a bit lifeless in the upper registers" - or have I misunderstood his post?

Maybe it's just another endorsement of the truism of "listen for yourself".

Personally, I also think it also gives weight to my contention that all the nuances of a speaker at this quality level cannot typically be fully appreciated or understood in one listening session - although practical logistics means that we often try to do precisely that.

Cheers
Tony

Edited by Tony M, 03 June 2010 - 10:54 PM.

[bluedog]

But, Keith, Bluedog seems to have experienced the exact opposite. He seems to have found the 803d's too bright and his mate thought Bluedog's VAF's were "a bit lifeless in the upper registers" - or have I misunderstood his post?

Maybe it's just another endorsement of the truism of "listen for yourself".

Personally, I also think it also gives weight to my contention that all the nuances of a speaker at this quality level cannot typically be fully appreciated or understood in one listening session - although practical logistics means that we often try to do precisely that.

Cheers
Tony

You are right Tony we did find the exact opposite to the stereo type vaf v b&w sound, the really strange thing again in the mix was valve v solid state.The other real surprising thing was i have just put a dedicated pre in with theater by-pass which make a huge difference over my denon 4308 and this is away at the moment getting modified so we were making this observation using the denon as a pre.Oh and i have listened to this set up with the 803d's several times but only the once in the new room which i must say made a world of difference aloud them to really breath ?

Edited by bluedog, 04 June 2010 - 05:29 AM.

[Drizt]

I think some people are underestimating the effect the room has on the end result. Its hard enough to compare the performance of the 'same' set of speakers in different rooms let along listening to one set of speakers in one room and then compare them to a different set of speakers in another room.

Sure we can try and make some wide sweeping generalisations but in the end Tony M is right. You can't really come to any hard and fast answers after one listen. You might listen to the speakers in a sub optimal room and then walk away saying, gees I don't know what all the fuss is about. Then you might hear the same speakers again but in a different configuration/position or even a different room and your jaw could hit the floor with amazement.

It takes time, experience, knowledge and perhaps even taking some measurements to sift through the variables to work out what is giving you the end result that you are hearing.

Anyways... just my 2c

[My Rantz]

Post cancelled as it is now not relevent.

Edited by My Rantz, 04 June 2010 - 09:13 AM.

[Kamikazi]

After spending many hours doing mods and checking the results with my Vaf I93 MK1's, I do have to point out that we as listeners struggle to be consistent when comparing even small differences between one setup and the next. There are so many variables at play. Case in point - the first demo of I93 MK2 I heard was troubled by a bright upper mid which was exciting and vibrant, but very tiring to listen to. I have little doubt the amp was inappropriate in this context, a valve/mosfet combo. A later listening session with the Arcam 600 was smooth enough to have on for hours, but lacked the grunt to get really serious volume that these speakers are capable of. ( MK1's could get 117 dBa without distortion with enough power ! ) The Arcam did not lack detail and would have suited most people IMO, but a higher performance amp could well have given the mids - treble some more life. Here's where the cable debate starts !

There are things you can do to VAF's Signature speakers to improve them if you are game. No magic required, just common sense.