91 replies to this topic

[Milesey74]

SNA members, I have been deliberating over a very impressive product. That is the Arcam AVR600. Numerous specialists have informed that the Arcam AVR 600 is a significant step up from most separates, including my semi separate system, that is a Denon 4308 as a pre and the superb NAD M25 multi-channel power amp as the pro. The Arcam AVR600 has received possibly the most glowing reviews of any unit I have ever read over the years. But it still sits uncomfortably with me given that I would be going from a fully satisfying incredibly powerful system to an all in one. Has any other members gone down the route of this infamous Arcam AVR600? I have been reading about some guys trading their $20k pre/pro's for this AVR which to me seems ludicrous. Carlton Audio Visual have a similar story of a guy dropping his very expensive power amp and using the Arcam as an all in one. Would be very interested in your thoughts....

Edited by Milesey74, 03 February 2010 - 07:37 PM.

[Paul Spencer]

Two questions:
What are you looking for in this upgrade?
What speakers are you running?

[Milesey74]

Great questions. I am running VAF i93 mk2s for centre and mains and they apparently are extremely well suited to the Arcam AVR600 or of course the more expensive Arcam pre and pro. I have KEF IQ30s (x4) as surrounds. The Kefs run out of the Denon and VAFs are biamped out of the M25.

A good question about the upgrade...it is an unknown quantity. My system at the moment is the very best sounding it has ever been. But I am always open to the idea of even better sound. I was informed that the Arcam will deliver a fuller sound and meatier punch even at low volumes, despite the lower power output. I was also informed that the Arcam can deliver 20W per channel of pure class A amplification and the remainder is a newly applied technology of class G amplification. The $20k Arcam pre/pro is not budgeted for but the AVR600 is. I was sceptical about the Widescreen review until I did some research on the reviewer and how respected he in his field. This is the link, when the page opens there is a link to the pdf review:

http://www.carltonau...=node/view/1160

There is another SNA member selling his $10k Meridian power amp and pre to go down this route as well. I just hope that this AVR lives upto it's reputation!! Otherwise I could be a sad SNA member for awhile.

[Stump]

Hey Milesey , I have the Arcam 600 and regards your quote " Arcam will deliver a fuller sound and meatier punch even at low volumes" will sound better for some and not for others. If your happy with your system stick with it.If you want to get surround sound and want a all in one amp get the Arcam.
Eamonn

[Mr_Gimlet]

There is another SNA member selling his $10k Meridian power amp and pre to go down this route as well. I just hope that this AVR lives upto it's reputation!! Otherwise I could be a sad SNA member for awhile.

Well it isn't me. Its a pricey piece of kit and I'd expect it to be pretty good, but I've always had a soft spot for Arcam - they are a British manufacturer who've stuck to their guns. As to whether its for you, well, you really need to demo.

What would cause me concern is that one box is doing video, pre/pro and power which knocks a lot of flexibility out down the track. My experience with video particularly has been that it gets obsolete very quickly but you can always not use it (5 svideo inputs? give me a break). So I would be worried its trying to do more than it needs to. Lots of hidef processing in the Arcam, many other manufacturers expect the players to do it. No equalisation/ room correction other than variable crossovers is a bit poor at this price point.

[grassy]

Also the Arcam AVR-600 gets highly commended av receivers over $4000.00 in the 2010 sound and image awards and has a good review on it in the issue(january)it comes in at a retail of $7498.00.Sounds like a winner to me.

[Dr X]

I was informed that the Arcam will deliver a fuller sound and meatier punch even at low volumes, despite the lower power output.

And how the hell does this person know that? Ask for a money back guarantee if it doesn't!

If you want a fuller sound get bigger speakers and/or sub(s) and forget this idea IMO.

Edited by Dr X, 04 February 2010 - 08:03 PM.

[Paul Spencer]

i93? Fine speakers! How are you bi-amping them? Are you actually biamping with an active crossover?

Going from separates to an all in one definitely has it's downsides. If just one thing fails ... also considering the price, the power is a bit limited. Probably more like 100w or less full range (1k specs are inflated).

I was informed that the Arcam will deliver a fuller sound and meatier punch even at low volumes, despite the lower power output.

You already have very good components, but fuller sound? That's a very fuzzy description and it's not really clear what that means. Meatier punch? Again this is very unclear and fuzzy. The kind that hifi salesmen like using to get you to spend more money.

Do you want real meaty punch? Look elsewhere. Real meaty punch comes from boost in the 50 - 200 Hz range, much like in pro systems with pro "subs" running at a much higher level. Meaty punch isn't something airy fairy you get in an amp because a respected reviewer tells you so! It's a very tangible thing. I'm not sure this is what you really want. Judging by your choices so far, probably not.

Fuller sound. One interpretation of that would be the sound from open baffle speakers. But perhaps a better word is more ambience and spaciousness. Again, I'm not too sure that's what you want either.

I'm not too sure there is that much to be gained after spending quite a lot of money here. Perhaps the ergonomics of an all in one? Again, I don't get the feeling that is your goal either.

At that price I think it's a mistake to go for an all in one. One thing to watch is that you don't buy into the stories people tell you because you want to believe them. When you want to justify a purchase, you go through all those stories like "...other guys are selling their $20k separates and upgrading to this!"

There are other things you can do that can really do something tangible and give you clear value for money. To improve the sound, I'd be considering other options:

• multiple high end subs (3) integrated with measurements and eq - are you living with +/- 20 db peaks in the bass without knowing it yet chasing tiny differences and possibly taking a sideways step while spending big bucks? ... it's possible that $150 spent on a mic + pre could do more for the sound than what you are thinking of spending
• DEQX active crossover for your VAFS - not easy to improve on these speakers, but if it can be done this is the way to do it
• high end active woofers
• room treatment and bass traps

I would do all of the above before even thinking about this, but that's just me.

[Milesey74]

Thankyou all for your responses so far.

I should emphasise, that in theory I am not looking to improve the sound as I can not imagine better sound than I am currently getting. BUT on the other hand...I am a realist and I understand that there are units out there that can surpass all expectations and take your listening pleasure up to a level you did no know existed. So I guess it is a big risk and probably unnecessary given that I am completely satisfied with the sound I am currently getting. So why am I seriously contemplating this? Well I guess I got swept away with the reviews and recommendations.

Paul, I think you are right. I think I should be looking into bass traps and improving my room acoustics. I have treated the room with acoustic foam, but really need to add some bass traps and do some proper analysis on how my room reacts at varying frequencies, reflections, standing waves etc.

I am not using a DEQX crossover with the VAF i93 MK2s. I currently split the signal from the preout on the 4308 into 2 signals per VAF speaker. ie. 1 preout signal divided between 2 power amp channels. Therefore out of a 7 channel amp I am using 6 channels. That is 2 for one main, 2 for the other main and 2 for the centre channel. I am using the 4308 to power the 4 surrounds.

I guess I need to think about this abit more and maybe go down the route of room improvement if I really want to 'tweak' something.

Thankyou all SNA enthusiasts, I really appreciate all of your opinions and suggestions and if there are more, they are very welcome.

Regards,

Miles

[Scotto83]

Any chance you can demo one at home in your system with your speakers? Any good retailers near you? Some should atleast offer you a money back trial period??

[Paul Spencer]

So you are "passive biamping"? One amp signal goes to the tweeter mid passive crossover, the other to the woofers?

I should emphasise, that in theory I am not looking to improve the sound as I can not imagine better sound than I am currently getting.

Just feel like spending some audio money anyway?!
It would'nt surprise me if you could improve it with a few things costing very little. Actually I'd be surprised if you couldn't improve the sound. It just takes a comparison and suddenly you see a whole new area of improvement.

I remember one time grinning from ear to ear thinking "wow, this is good and from here it can only get better." Since then I've improved many times since. And actually I've still got a long way to go.

I think what would surprise you is if you heard DEQX. It really can open up some quite big changes. It lets your drivers do things that aren't possible with a passive xo. Only thing is, you might need to pay someone to install it for you and set it up. It's an advanced job. I'd suggest your biggest upgrades would be that and working on the bass.

I'm not surprised you're in no hurry to improve the sound - those are all fine components.

One other thing I was going to mention. I've found your speakers to be very unforgiving - ruthless in revealing detail. If your amp is clipping, it's probably going to get nasty. As a result, I'd say it's especially important to power them with very capable amps, and to have a fair amount of headroom. Again, this is a reason to use power amps as you do already. In my system I've driven my mains with 50w, 100w, 230w, 450w and 650w! Quite a range. Having used 650w for a while and now running 230w, I actually find the 230 that I'm currently running to be only just enough. It's very easy to underestimate the amount of power you need, or that is useful. Although my setup is power hungry due to the eq and since the amp is running full range. On a movie I get very very close to clipping at the loudest points. The funny thing is 50w sounded loud enough to me but I did more often run into problems with the treble sounding harsh turned up.

Still thinking of buying the Arcam?

[Antripodean]

I would definitely not go for the Arcam. Any company that is making up claims of "Class G" is just doing some marketing spin. What on earth does "G" stand for? Along with that, you would need to hear it in your system to really compare. If what you have is great then stay with that.

I have a Pioneer SC LX-81 and I am going to buy an Elektra Theatron so that I can have a separate power amp. This will also allow me to run by DCX and EQ for the room.

[vic]

Hi Milesey,
The pre amp section of the arcam avr600 should be a step up(pre amps are important),the power amp side does seem to have good power available for an avr,as for class A 20watts no,idle is only 120watts so not possible.Sound wise I would I would use with your speakers,depending on music taste and vol levels you need and see if suitable for your system.Your speakers like most would like quality power.
Cheers Victor.

[Antripodean]

Hi Milesey,
The pre amp section of the arcam avr600 should be a step up(pre amps are important),the power amp side does seem to have good power available for an avr,as for class A 20watts no,idle is only 120watts so not possible.Sound wise I would I would use with your speakers,depending on music taste and vol levels you need and see if suitable for your system.Your speakers like most would like quality power.
Cheers Victor.

Just wondering how it could be considered that the arcam is providing "quality power"?


Five channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1% distortion at 82.0 watts
1% distortion at 95.5 watts Seven channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1% distortion at 81.0 watts
1% distortion at 93.9 watts

from the home theater mag tests

[vic]

Just wondering how it could be considered that the arcam is providing "quality power"?


Five channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1% distortion at 82.0 watts
1% distortion at 95.5 watts Seven channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1% distortion at 81.0 watts
1% distortion at 93.9 watts

from the home theater mag tests

Hi,
I think you missunderstood my comment,I did not say the arcam amp is quality power wise,I said all speakers will sound better with matching amps of qualilty,not so much quantity.I have not listen to avr600 in my system so best to try in milesey,s see if enough powerfor HT if run full range,maybe not.The Arcam has got good sound reviews,so its worth a try in his system.In my system I use ref600mkIII even for HT,They have very high power,and sound fantastic.
Cheers Victor.

[Milesey74]

I read the home theatre mag test results with respect to distortion and was not at all concerned. Many manufacturers claim THD levels of less than 0.05% but in real test environments they are rarely achieved. And in any case many loudspeakers when tested actually distort around 8%, meaning the THD of 1% is negligible. There is a fantastic audio analysis video that debunks some of the wildest theories such as high end power cables etc. But that is another topic altogether, but here is the link: Absolutely worth the watch, even though it is an hour long.

I agree that the Arcam AVR600 would be a step up pre-amp wise. But to fund this experiment I was going to sell both my 4308 and NAD M25 to buy the Arcam. I guess ideally I would keep the NAD M25, sell the 4308 and purchase the Arcam AVR600. But then my mind starts to think would I not be better buying a dedicated preamp such as the NAD M15HD which retails for about the same price as the Arcam AVR600.

I am really having second thoughts now on going down the Arcam route. And I can't see a Hifi specialist allowing me to bring one home to test it. The other small but not so important interesting note, is that currently the Arcam is made in China. But production is relocating to England later on this year. I don't think that is a deal breaker though.

[alittlewino]

M..74,

FWIW you can find a review here which you may not have come across >>> http://www.iar-80.com/.

I'm very happy with my AVR300 doing the processing for HT and powering centre and rears.

[Milesey74]

M..74,

FWIW you can find a review here which you may not have come across >>> http://www.iar-80.com/.

I'm very happy with my AVR300 doing the processing for HT and powering centre and rears.

I have read this review. This review is the full version of the one published in Widescreen review. I am very sceptical of this review and can understand why Widescreen review heavily edited it. For example, at one point in the review he explains that you need to swap the power lead for a particular brand power lead otherwise the receiver sounds dull and lifeless. I mean give me a break. All that review did is make me doubt everything I had read about the receiver. The sad thing is that Peter Moncrieff is someone who was held in high esteem in the audiophile review world. He has been doing reviews since the early 80s but now I can't help but think that he has gone a little crazy or even sold out.

I am glad that you are happy with the AVR300 doing all your HT processing. I am sure it is a superb receiver.

[Antripodean]

I read the home theatre mag test results with respect to distortion and was not at all concerned. Many manufacturers claim THD levels of less than 0.05% but in real test environments they are rarely achieved. And in any case many loudspeakers when tested actually distort around 8%, meaning the THD of 1% is negligible. There is a fantastic audio analysis video that debunks some of the wildest theories such as high end power cables etc. But that is another topic altogether, but here is the link: Absolutely worth the watch, even though it is an hour long.

It's good that you are fully aware of all the hokum about cables and wires. It's going to save you money and let you spend it where it counts - the room Negative feedback is evil is another fave topic for the audio luddites.

I agree that many amp tests are making things up / testing under special conditions. However, when you get to hear an amp that really is under 0.01% THD then you will be mighty impressed. The 8% distortion on speakers is mostly about bass/subwoofers. If you are driving the low frequencies hard you really need to keep it under 5%. Distortion is more detectable in speakers as you go up the frequency range, hence the wave (guide) of compression drivers entering the home environment.

Either way, I trust you will get the best outcome and ultimately achieve the sound that allows you to enjoy the music even more.

[Paul Spencer]

I wouldn't consider THD a factor in any choice as it has been proven to be irrelevant to sound quality. It paints the picture with a brush too broad, and this has been proven. Trying to rate sound quality with THD is like trying to choose colours in black and white. Earl Geddes has done some work on this and in the past had distorted audio samples on his website. It showed that you could have higher THD, in fact quite high and yet sound clean, but also low THD yet an obviously distorted signal. Turns out you need a more sophisticated picture to get a real idea of SQ. Geddes and others have come up with metrics that do track with our perception, but I've never heard of them being used in tests. It's a shame as that would give us real info. According to Geddes, crossover distortion at low level is the most important thing to measure in an amp. That would suggest the Arcam could well be a good choice. 20 watts is enough for critical listening at moderate levels.

I'm not too sure manufacturer's would really want people to be able to judge sound quality on the basis of specs they provide. I think they prefer to wield the tool of marketing, and I think consumers prefer it that way as well.

I still think that's too much to spend on an all in one.

[Antripodean]

Earl Geddes has done some work on this and in the past had distorted audio samples on his website. It showed that you could have higher THD, in fact quite high and yet sound clean, but also low THD yet an obviously distorted signal. Turns out you need a more sophisticated picture to get a real idea of SQ. Geddes and others have come up with metrics that do track with our perception, but I've never heard of them being used in tests. It's a shame as that would give us real info. According to Geddes, crossover distortion at low level is the most important thing to measure in an amp.

Yes, I have been reading Geddes posts on this. I, for one, would really like to see these metrics being used, and applied widely to collect more data, so that amplifier design could be at a minimum level of acceptability. Of course, they can still sound different As Sean Olive says, audio components need a lot more science and a lot less marketing to continue to improve.

I have gain clone, D-class and had tube, class A and A/B and am getting back into A/B. My current speakers have a sensitivity of 89dB. My new speakers are 100dB. Looking forward to doing some comparisons and hearing how my new amp sounds at this new level of transparency.

Sorry to Milesey for going OT

[Milesey74]

I agree that it is alot of money for an all in one. I have just spoken to a guy who has gone from NAD separates to the Arcam AVR600 driving VAF i93 speakers! He is adamant that it was a significant step up in sound quality for him and his room. So this kind of feedback has got me thinking that maybe the Arcam is capable of driving these fantastic speakers. And will it be a step up in sound quality? I don't know. One thing that has me concerned about the Arcam is the lack of Audyssey.

Don't worry about going OT, the 'nerdier' the talk, the more I can relate

[alittlewino]

[/QUOTE]UOTE=Milesey74;321520]I have read this review. This review is the full version of the one published in Widescreen review. I am very sceptical of this review and can understand why Widescreen review heavily edited it. For example, at one point in the review he explains that you need to swap the power lead for a particular brand power lead otherwise the receiver sounds dull and lifeless. I mean give me a break. [/QUOTE]
I don't believe everyting I read until I try it for myself, regardless of axiomatic laws of physics - wouldn't know whether Moncrieff is correct or crazy but I don't assume either. But I do worry when the AVR300 was the dux nuts, then the 350 was best in world and now the 600 takes the mantle - is every new Arcam AVR model the world's best?!

Something I have literally only just tried and bugger me I was blown away:

1. I run an Arcam DV27A as my CD player and it has dedicated RCA stereo outs for this purpose, which I conenct via Nordost Red Dawn/Eichmann I/Cs to the CD input on my Primare I30. D/A done in the DV27A and then through 1 preamp stage.

2. I also run the Arcam AVR300 receiving digital via coax from the DV27A and then connect the fronts from the AVR300 pre-outs to the AUX inputs on the Primare I30 via Nordost Solar Wind I/Cs i.e D/A done in the AVR300 and then through 2 preamplifier stages as best as I can understand. I use this for HT. AVR300 powers centre and rears.

For the first time I have done an A/B comparo on stereo music by balancing up the volumes through each of the paths and changing which signal I hear by simply toggling the Primare between AUX and CD inputs, all else untouched.

Listening to Dire Straights Private Investigations and there is very little in it with the I30 sounding more airy, detailed and emotive to me, but only by a very small margin - similarly KDLang Hallelujah from the 49th Parallel and Chant from Four Play.

Don't purport this to be a definitve review by any stretch (wouldn't know how to do one anyway!!) but I was genuinely surprised to the extent that somebody on a budget or wanting a one box could find the AVR300 (if HDMI isn't an imperative), or it newer cousin the 350 a very palatable solution particularly when able to be picked up from the UK for under $1k landed. To be fair, one may need a power amp for fronts to get close to what I have compared, but it seems the Arcam pre is pretty good.

Just a though as it would leave you lots to spend on other things, and it genuinely surprised me.

Shame you weren't in Brissie as I'd be happy for you to demo and hear for yourself

[Milesey74]

Don't purport this to be a definitve review by any stretch (wouldn't know how to do one anyway!!) but I was genuinely surprised to the extent that somebody on a budget or wanting a one box could find the AVR300 (if HDMI isn't an imperative), or it newer cousin the 350 a very palatable solution particularly when able to be picked up from the UK for under $1k landed. To be fair, one may need a power amp for fronts to get close to what I have compared, but it seems the Arcam pre is pretty good.


Just a though as it would leave you lots to spend on other things, and it genuinely surprised me.

Shame you weren't in Brissie as I'd be happy for you to demo and hear for yourself[/QUOTE]


Thankyou for your kind offer. I am sure that the Arcam 300 is a fantastic musical unit but I can't go back to lossy movie soundtracks now after being well and truly bitten by Bluray and its audio lossless glory! I am sure the Arcam AVR300 is a superb unit for DVDs and CDs though. I can't even bring myself to hire DVDs or buy them anymore. It is a bit like when DVD came out and once you experienced it, VHS became a distant 2nd. I think the only all in one AVR I would go at this point in time is the Arcam AVR600. Out of interest, two hifi shops told me they have stopped stocking the $12,000+ top of the range Denon AVR because they simply weren't moving once customers were hearing the Arcam AVR600. I am sure there is some 'salesmanship' in that sentence but they did sell both brands.

[Milesey74]

Thank you for all your responses thus far. I have decided to stick with the pre/pro option for the time being (ie. what I currently have). I pulled my pre and pro from sale after much deliberation. I was very appreciative of everyone's opinions. Regards, Miles.

[Paul Spencer]

Sounds like a sensible choice to me

[rocky500]

How about the new ARCAM AVR500 which is being released.

quote from the web
"Arcam assures that the build quality of the AVR is still very much the same as that of the AVR600, though a bit of its functionality has been taken out. Features often seen as extras, such as internet radio streaming and IP Control have been removed along with a network card. Compatibility with older hardware may also be diminished due to the lack of some legacy video and audio outputs.
Of course, the Arcam AVR500 wasn’t lauded for amazing networking capabilities, and it didn’t get rave reviews for its ability to stream Pandora. It was known for one thing and one thing only – audio quality."

Edited by rocky500, 10 February 2010 - 10:44 AM.

[audioassurance]

Yes the arcam avr 600 is absolutelly phenominal i am going to get one let me know if you want one i may be able to get 2 at a good price Kind regards Mile

[audioassurance]

I have listened arcam avr 600 with nu-force oppo blue ray player absolutely phenominla qualiyu of sound through sanyo 1080p projector and legacy focus se fronts andlegacy centre and rears and with quality cables i was knocked out so this year i will build my av with these products Mile

[himey]

I've used the AVR600 and own the products you own/am thinking of buying. I think you'd be mad to go back to an all-in-one and I'd question the products owned by those upgrading should they not stack up to an all-in-one. Do not trust reviewers or people on forums. Always use them as a rough guide at best and go have a listen. Most people know squat. Have you seen the inside of an Arcam AVR600 compared to your NAD? If you swap the Pre and don't notice enough improvement you can always change the power. The M25 is a beast - it's difficult to belive the Arcam will give off the kind of power your M25 is capable of given the lab specs quoted above. Wherever you purchased your gear from, you've obviously spent a considerable amount of money so ask if you can home-demo the Arcam. I'd be surprised if you were overly impressed. All the best.

Edited by himey, 28 April 2010 - 06:30 PM.

[burningpanda]

Haven't you read the Widescreen review from the guy that lives in old ballroom under a Spanish castle - he's using seven B&W 802D speakers and the AVR600 is the best sound he's ever heard... like ever! Run, don't walk to your dealer and accept whatever he's willing to offer you for feable Krells or whatever audio minutae you have.
Women weap at the sound of the Arcam and even the cat has taken an unprecedented interest in music.
Yours in audio nirvana....

[Craigandkim]

I have listened arcam avr 600 with nu-force oppo blue ray player absolutely phenominla qualiyu of sound through sanyo 1080p projector and legacy focus se fronts andlegacy centre and rears and with quality cables i was knocked out so this year i will build my av with these products Mile

Was this at Pymble hifi?

[himey]

Haven't you read the Widescreen review from the guy that lives in old ballroom under a Spanish castle - he's using seven B&W 802D speakers and the AVR600 is the best sound he's ever heard... like ever! Run, don't walk to your dealer and accept whatever he's willing to offer you for feable Krells or whatever audio minutae you have.
Women weap at the sound of the Arcam and even the cat has taken an unprecedented interest in music.
Yours in audio nirvana....

This is exactly why you don't want to put your faith in idiots on forums or morons that right over the top tripe for reviews. As I have stated; list the type of gear you have and ask if your dealer will let you try a demo model at home. If you have purchased this much gear from one source in the past, they should let you - if not, see if your local dealer will accept your credit card as good faith. The simple fact is; many reviewers often don't know **** about hifi. And even if they do, they're paid to write in order to sell product, not help you. Bloggers are the same; more often than not, they're equally useless. They know what they think they like and claim it's the fruit of the gods. Go out, listen, find what you like, buy it and be happy.

[doobius]

I would definitely not Any company that is making up claims of "Class G" is just doing some marketing spin. What on earth does "G" stand for?

not sure why you say this - what does A or B stand for?
http://sound.westhos...les/class-g.htm

but anyway, agree the OP made the right decision

[Paul Spencer]

It doesn't make much sense to me on a practical level to spend so much on an all-in-one. You are mixing many different functions into the one box, including technology that will date differently. On the AV processor side of things you may want to upgrade sooner than you would need to with the amps - the technology changes. The preamp and power amps won't date nearly as fast as the technolgy here moves at a slower pace. A 10 year old power amp isn't old, but for surround processing that's a different story. Also there is the issue of things going wrong. If one part fails you may be a bit more stuck than if you had separates.

It's a silly situation that dedicated surround processors are so expensive. You can buy a new receiver from about $400, but if you remove one of the most expensive parts (5-7 channels of power amps) then the cost goes up 10 fold! Sure, it's an apples - oranges comparison, but it seems to me it would make sense to offer dedicated surround processors starting from $1k. You buy power amps for more long term use (say 10 years) but you might replace the processor every 5 years to stay up to date. The only way to do this is buy from overseas.

[Milesey74]

It doesn't make much sense to me on a practical level to spend so much on an all-in-one. You are mixing many different functions into the one box, including technology that will date differently. On the AV processor side of things you may want to upgrade sooner than you would need to with the amps - the technology changes. The preamp and power amps won't date nearly as fast as the technolgy here moves at a slower pace. A 10 year old power amp isn't old, but for surround processing that's a different story. Also there is the issue of things going wrong. If one part fails you may be a bit more stuck than if you had separates.

It's a silly situation that dedicated surround processors are so expensive. You can buy a new receiver from about $400, but if you remove one of the most expensive parts (5-7 channels of power amps) then the cost goes up 10 fold! Sure, it's an apples - oranges comparison, but it seems to me it would make sense to offer dedicated surround processors starting from $1k. You buy power amps for more long term use (say 10 years) but you might replace the processor every 5 years to stay up to date. The only way to do this is buy from overseas.

Gents, I agreed with most of your posts! I really did. Until I had the opportunity recently to hear the Arcam AVR600 with my speakers. I was at a get together provided by VAF in Sydney. I went there simply to meet Phil Vafiadis, an incredible man with a wealth of knowledge in many areas (especially speakers!). Needless to say I was amazed that he was running an AVR600 to demo these very high end speakers and soundwall. What got me though, was my Wife, turning around and saying to me, 'why does it not sound this good at home'. I would have liked to have used the room as an excuse but the room we were in for the demo was hardly an acoustically treated room (Hotel floor in the city). So after all of that I bought an Arcam AVR600 (not from a Sydney retailer) and replaced my Denon 4308 and awesome power amplifier NADM25. To say that the sound is a massive improvement is an understatement! I just could not believe it. It still does not make sense to me! I then bought my other SNA friend (Alex) over for a listen, he is now saving his dollars and will sell his $10,000 Meridian amplifier to purchase one and he is a 2 channel guy!!

You will see my beloved Denon 4308 and NAD25 for sale soon. But before I do sell them I am going to test the Arcam with the NAD to see if there is any noticeable difference in sound quality. I really do love my NADM25 so I owe it one more look in before departing with it.

I am a professional Engineer (Electrical), I do not believe hype in articles nor do I believe in high end power cables etc. However, Arcam has produced something extraordinary here.

My review thus far:

Bass without subwoofer - My walls were shaking and so were the HT seats in the opening scene of Transformers on Bluray. My friend got up and put the back of his hand on the SVS to ensure it was not on. The bass is tight and controlled but also deep.

Treble - No over the top brightness at all. The highs are smoothed but not excessively.

The difference between all my previous high end gear...one word....DETAIL. The detail in the music I can hear with this amp is beyond anything I have heard previously!

What I don't like about it:

It is very simple! I am not used to it, the features are limited. It does not have a volume knob, which is ridiculous!! You can biamp the mains but not the centre (which is what I will do if I keep the NAD M25). At the moment I am running 7 channels with no biamping and the sound is incredible (I honestly thought I would miss the power especially since I don't have overly sensitive speakers)! No ethernet upgrades. It has to be downloaded to a pc and then transfered through the 32 port. I can't help but wonder if Audyssey would be an improvement on the very effective eq of the Arcam.

Why did I buy this? Well, as I said before I went to the VAF demo in Sydney simply to meet Phil and also have a look at the VERY impressive soundwall. If anything I wanted to walk away with 4 x VAF i91s for surrounds to replace my Kefs. Instead I was blown away by the Arcam AVR600 and trust me I did not want to be impressed by anything that was going to cost me more money. I was very happy with the sound I was getting with my previous system and YES IT FELT WRONG GOING FROM SEPARATES TO AN ALL IN ONE!! It really did! But I can't argue with what I am hearing! This only happened 2 weeks ago!!

SNA members ignore some of the ridiculous 'advertising posts' in this thread which I have not even bothered to reply to, not only that it is very disappointing that some people have chosen to use this thread as cheap and nasty way to push their products!

If anyone would like anymore information on my latest purchase I am happy to continue discussions with legitimate SNA members. I am happy to answer any queries and questions and I will be sure to post a more detailed review soon.

Also, I should note, that maybe it is just that this amp is truly matched to my VAF i93mk2s. I don't know.

I agree, with the above post insert reference pre-amps. Why the hell is a pre-amp more expensive than an all in one. It does not make any sense to me either.

One last thing, as a side note, Arcam do a pre and pro but it is approaching $20,000!! And the word from industry is that the sound difference between it and the Arcam AVR600 is negligible and certainly does not warrant the additional $13,000!! I can't help but wonder what the Arcam Avr600 would be like with the Arcam power amp as a pro.

Recently I spoke to a retailer in Brisbane who told me since stocking the Arcam AVR600 they have dropped the Denon AVCHD1 and stopped selling separates!! I said why, he replied 'They simply can't compete with what the sound this amp produces'. (This conversation took place after I bought the amp from another dealer).

Needless to say I am one happy camper at the moment and still am at a lost on why or how this receiver is as good as it is.

[Paul Spencer]

Now there's a golden moment no audio enthusiast should pass up on, when your wife says

'why does it not sound this good at home'.

Whatever you have planned for your sound system that is the most expensive should be mentioned as quickly as possible!

[Milesey74]

Now there's a golden moment no audio enthusiast should pass up on, when your wife says


Whatever you have planned for your sound system that is the most expensive should be mentioned as quickly as possible!

I know! But I must admit I felt very guilty buying this unit! Especially since I was happy with the sound I was previously getting.

A quick update - Until about an hour ago I had not tested the Arcam with my vinyl properly. So far I am disappointed with the results. This is completely the opposite to my experience with CD and Bluray. So it may be an adjustment that I have wrong....

[Milesey74]

As I suspected. I had the speakers set to small and the sub on. This setting whilst great for HT is less than ideal for 2 channel vinyl. I rectified this, turned the eq off, turned the sub off, increased the bass setting to help balance the levels for vinyl and am now getting much more appropriate results!

[stinger]

Hi Milesey, just a quick question that I am curious about. Is there a huge difference when you bi-amp your fronts compared to when you don't?

Also, it's been great reading this thread because I am trying to decide between getting an AVR600 or separates.

[Stump]

[quote name='Milesey74']
What I don't like about it:

It does not have a volume knob, which is ridiculous!!

HAHA , I had a Denon AVR for years and not once used the volume knob!! I like to sit back and use the remote.Also for those who use a HIFI cabinet with glass door have to set the AVR back 2 inches because of the BIG VOLUME KNOB!! Arcam got it right..
Play around with the settings and you will find the Arcam works well.As for your turntable, as I had a Denon 103R MC cart I got myself a Lehmann Black Cube SE and the sound ROCKS just as well as the SACD player.
Eamonn

[Milesey74]

[quote name='Stump'][quote name='Milesey74']
What I don't like about it:

It does not have a volume knob, which is ridiculous!!

HAHA , I had a Denon AVR for years and not once used the volume knob!! I like to sit back and use the remote.Also for those who use a HIFI cabinet with glass door have to set the AVR back 2 inches because of the BIG VOLUME KNOB!! Arcam got it right..
Play around with the settings and you will find the Arcam works well.As for your turntable, as I had a Denon 103R MC cart I got myself a Lehmann Black Cube SE and the sound ROCKS just as well as the SACD player.
Eamonn[/QUOTE]

I have a Michell Gyro SE, a with a clearaudio Maestro cartridge, and a Graham Slee Reflex phono stage. My vinyl reproduction on average (depending on the pressing) surpases my SACD and CD collection. However my Bluray collection of the Neil Young archives is what digital music should be like! ABSOLUTELY SUPERB!

[geoffayres]

Milesey,

I've been following this thread from the first post, and it's just become even more interesting.

I'm very interested in how the AVR600 teams up with the M25.
Like you, I'm keen to simplify my setup (for the ladies of the house), and I've been thinking about the AVR600 for some time.

I too, have an M25, but I found that it didn't team at all well with the Arcam C31 2ch pre that I had for demo. There seemed to be some sort of mis-match between the C31 and M25 until each unit was fully booted up. No damage done, just a very loud and nasty hum coming from the speakers. The C31 went back very quickly.

It would be great to know if the AVR600/M25 combo has the same issue, or whether it's just a C31 thing.

Cheers,
Geoff

[Milesey74]

Milesey,

I've been following this thread from the first post, and it's just become even more interesting.

I'm very interested in how the AVR600 teams up with the M25.
Like you, I'm keen to simplify my setup (for the ladies of the house), and I've been thinking about the AVR600 for some time.

I too, have an M25, but I found that it didn't team at all well with the Arcam C31 2ch pre that I had for demo. There seemed to be some sort of mis-match between the C31 and M25 until each unit was fully booted up. No damage done, just a very loud and nasty hum coming from the speakers. The C31 went back very quickly.

It would be great to know if the AVR600/M25 combo has the same issue, or whether it's just a C31 thing.

Cheers,
Geoff

Geoff, that is very interesting! My Wife has volunteered to help do a mixture of combinations this Sunday. We are going to try the Arcam in biamp mode. We will also try the Arcam as a pre with the NAD as a pro. I might even throw the Denon back into the mix somehow. The thing that is really annoying me at the moment is that I have an SVS ASEQ1 and can not get it to work properly with the Arcam AVR600. The ASEQ1 is an Audyssey machine that measures upto 32 positions in your room and does a great job of flattening the frequency response of your room through the application of filters. It is a superb piece of equipment and worked really well with the Denon 4308 and provided me the deepest cleanest bass I have ever experienced. So at the moment I am running the sub straight out of the back of the Arcam and it seems to be doing a good job but I am not convinced that the crossovers are as accurate or the bass as seemless. I will test this extensively on Sunday (hopefully).

I must admit that there is a part of me that hopes the NAD M25 in conjunction with the Arcam gives me more authority in the sound that I am getting now. I don't think it will, I think I will be wasting my time. But, I need to know. I really do love the M25 and am reluctant to part with it.

[geoffayres]

Milesey,

Good luck with your testing, and with the Audyssey machine. Perseverance often gets results!!
I really do hope the AVR600 goes well with the M25 (for both of us........).
Please report your findings. I'm keen to know.........

Cheers,
Geoff