A victimless crime?

[davewantsmoore]

its stealing and will remain stealing no matter how you cut and dice it. people will try brush it away with excuses. ie oh no I'm just trying it see how I'd like it and if really do like it will buy it honest. bull dust I say. if want to try it go rent it and pay the due. taking something for nothing is stealing. no ifs no buts no maybe's 

 

ps am not too sure how fair the digital distribution model is either when comes to artist. have seen plenty of photos from artists on the royalty paid. its a pittance. not sure how sustainable a model that is either.

 

Indeed it is .... but it is no different to generations ago if they started leaving the door to the theatre open so truckloads of non-paying people could squeeze in up the back .... and if they paid the actors in peanuts.

 

Yes many of the punters are trespassing ... and yes the actors have to work in a supply and demand world where they could choose to go and work for someone else .....  but if the industry dies, it will be the fault of the people in control of it, and nobody elses.

[Chopsus Maximus]

... Years ago it was bootleg VHS ... Nothing much has changed ... Just the ease of the act.

[LogicprObe]

Oh, you mean....   http://www.netflixaustralianow.com.au/

 

 

In all seriousness... The rumours are that Netflix can't conqueror Australia, as they do not have the rights to enough content here.   More symptoms of a broken distribution / licensing model, of the industry's own making.

 

Like most people I've read some pretty disturbing stories about movie/music/tv industry .....  hopefully the solution is waiting in the wings, just around the corner.... the ebay of content distribution?   <shrug>

 

Their big thing about 'zoning' is coming back to bite them on the arse!

[TMM]

People need to know that picking up a movie in JBs and walking out with it without paying is no different than downloading through a torrent server.

No, it isn't. If someone has no intention of buying the movie from JB in the first place, then by downloading it they have not cost JB/movie maker anything. Infact, there is reason to believe that piracy actually promotes sales because people who pirated and watched the movie may then recommend it to others, of which some percentage will go out and buy a disc. It also adds a 'trial before you buy' aspect.

If they steal a disc from JB then they have cost JB/movie maker the amount that the physical goods took to produce. This is a crime which ever way you look at it.

The core problem is that the companies who sell music/movies are asking far more than people are prepared to pay for the content. If they were asking a reasonable amount people would just be buying the content through legal means. Either they need to provide the movie cheaper than it can be pirated, or add value by making it more convenient to buy it through legal means compared to pirating. Apple has done this somewhat successfully by providing a system that adds convenience (iTunes/iPod), so people are prepared to pay a slight premium for the service over pirating the same content.

I pay approx $90 a month for 500GB internet. If i downloaded a 10GB movie it would effectively cost me $1.80 and the inconvenience of waiting a few hours for it to download. If i walk into JB and buy the BluRay disc it costs me $20+, that's a huge disparity.

One solution would be to just lower the price of BluRay discs, but then they would be admitting that they were stooging us at $20+ a disc before, not to mention that after adding retail overheads you are probably up to the $5-10 per disc mark and people still don't want to pay that much. Also, having to go and buy a physical item from a store (which may only be open business hours) is an additional inconvenience compared to just downloading it through the internet. People also don't want to have a giant cabinet of discs when they can store it on a single hard drive or stream it from an on-demand service.

If only there was another solution.... Oh yeah, someone has already invented that, it's called Netflix. Well it's no wonder that Australia is the pirate capital of the world for TV/Movies given that we don't have any content services like that available to us legally.

Streaming services like Netflix probably won't work as well in Australia as they do in other countries because the quality of our internet is pretty poor in areas, however it is pretty rich for the content providers to be crying poor over piracy when they aren't even making an effort. Even with their pig headed antics they still are turning record profits. If no one wants to invest in movies it is either caused by the content distributors and media crying wolf, or because there is some other aspect which has made investing in movies riskier in recent years.

Edited August 29, 2014 by TMM

[Gee Emm]

@@TMM your post only represents what suits you, & you presume it to suit everyone else.

Some people do want physical libraries.

Some people do prefer physical media.

Some people don't have access to effective downloading.

[David.M]

@@TMM, it always amazes me the efforts some will go to in order to justify the theft (illegal downloading) of music and film/video.  imo the main reason people do it is because they believe the risk of being held accountable for the theft is next to zero.  That it seems to be socially acceptable to many doesn't offer any deterrent either.  Some of the issues you raise concerning costs & providers may have some basis, but is that justification to just steal it because you can?  If your livelihood was dependent upon the legal distribution of this property I'm sure you would have a very different view.

Edited August 29, 2014 by David.M

[TMM]

@@TMM your post only represents what suits you, & you presume it to suit everyone else.

Some people do want physical libraries.

Some people do prefer physical media.

Some people don't have access to effective downloading.

That is absolutely fine. I see no reason that they should stop selling discs if people still want them, however long-term i think discs will be replaced by downloads as has happened for video games and for the most part, music.

As of current, the only way in Australia one can purchase a movie to keep is to buy a DVD or BluRay disc. Even if the discs were free people would still pirate off the internet as it is a more convenient medium in various aspects.

Surely, they would be better off making 1000 sales at $2 each compared to making 20 sales at $25 each. Give the people what they want in a medium they want for a reasonable price and they will come. The whole 'piracy is bad and you should feel bad' guilt routine isn't working. Piracy isn't going to go away, they are fighting a losing battle. They simply need to find a way to attract people away from piracy rather than trying to deter them. Plenty of people would be prepared to pay an extra $2 to download a 'legit' copy from a high speed server than have to pirate one.

 

@@TMM, it always amazes me the efforts some will go to in order to justify the theft (illegal downloading) of music and film/video. imo the main reason people do it is because they believe the risk of being held accountable for the theft is next to zero. That it seems to be socially acceptable to many doesn't offer any deterrent either. Some of the issues you raise concerning costs & providers may have some basis, but is that justification to just steal it because you can? If your livelihood was dependent upon the legal distribution of this property I'm sure you would have a very different view.

People don't feel guilty for downloading a movie because they feel that the retail price for a movie on a BluRay disc is ridiculous and they wouldn't have purchased it anyway. Therefore by downloading the movie they are doing no harm and just helping themselves. It's that simple.

The other reason for piracy, primarily TV Shows, is that at the time of downloading they are not legally available for purchase/viewing in Australia at all. People pirate shows from other countries as they are released because if they wait for it to be shown/available locally the story will probably have been spoiled by internet gossip. It's kind of hard to avoid a show like 'Game Of Thones' being spoiled if you follow any social media at all.

If someones livelihood was dependent upon the legal distribution of this property they would try to think up a way that they can compete with piracy.

Currently their offer of a $25 disc to compete with a $1.80 download is laughable as it is both less convenient and more than 10 times the cost.

For the record, what does actually hurt the industry the most is pre-release versions being 'leaked' before the release. It can give false impressions of the final product and affect legitimate sales.

Edited August 29, 2014 by TMM

[LogicprObe]

One of the main reasons torrents are so popular in Australia is, that no matter how crap your internet is, even if it has periods of good and bad like dial up does with weather etc, you'll eventually get your show/movie to watch.

If you can't stream content, downloading is the only other way.

[ferchersan]

 

Movie Piracy funds Terrorism!

 

I really can't see how that is the case when there is no money in the act of uploading copyrighted material, nor does it cost to download it ... or were they referring to those shady characters at the Markets selling bootleg movies?

 

Somehoe I doubt they were making millions of dollars to fund some sort of Jihad ... more likely making enough money to support their family while waiting for a refugee visa LOL!

Which terrorists are we talking about?

Make of it what you will, but the US movie (and music) industry actually own a lotta companies that manufacture weapons.

As outlined in this handy diagram from the inside of Godspeed You! Black Emperor's 'Yanqui U.X.O' LP. (Yankee Unexploded Ordanance).

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_I5Zd6phUCSQ/SeT-HinJvOI/AAAAAAAAAVs/DrHHUuq1xeg/s1600-h/godspeed_map.jpg

[betty boop]

No, it isn't. If someone has no intention of buying the movie from JB in the first place, then by downloading it they have not cost JB/movie maker anything. Infact, there is reason to believe that piracy actually promotes sales because people who pirated and watched the movie may then recommend it to others, of which some percentage will go out and buy a disc. It also adds a 'trial before you buy' aspect.

If they steal a disc from JB then they have cost JB/movie maker the amount that the physical goods took to produce. This is a crime which ever way you look at it.

The core problem is that the companies who sell music/movies are asking far more than people are prepared to pay for the content. If they were asking a reasonable amount people would just be buying the content through legal means. Either they need to provide the movie cheaper than it can be pirated, or add value by making it more convenient to buy it through legal means compared to pirating. Apple has done this somewhat successfully by providing a system that adds convenience (iTunes/iPod), so people are prepared to pay a slight premium for the service over pirating the same content.

I pay approx $90 a month for 500GB internet. If i downloaded a 10GB movie it would effectively cost me $1.80 and the inconvenience of waiting a few hours for it to download. If i walk into JB and buy the BluRay disc it costs me $20+, that's a huge disparity.

One solution would be to just lower the price of BluRay discs, but then they would be admitting that they were stooging us at $20+ a disc before, not to mention that after adding retail overheads you are probably up to the $5-10 per disc mark and people still don't want to pay that much. Also, having to go and buy a physical item from a store (which may only be open business hours) is an additional inconvenience compared to just downloading it through the internet. People also don't want to have a giant cabinet of discs when they can store it on a single hard drive or stream it from an on-demand service.

If only there was another solution.... Oh yeah, someone has already invented that, it's called Netflix. Well it's no wonder that Australia is the pirate capital of the world for TV/Movies given that we don't have any content services like that available to us legally.

Streaming services like Netflix probably won't work as well in Australia as they do in other countries because the quality of our internet is pretty poor in areas, however it is pretty rich for the content providers to be crying poor over piracy when they aren't even making an effort. Even with their pig headed antics they still are turning record profits. If no one wants to invest in movies it is either caused by the content distributors and media crying wolf, or because there is some other aspect which has made investing in movies riskier in recent years.

 

what a strange suggestion. a cost of the blu-ray should be somehow equated to the cost of stealing off the net ? or maybe we should start equating the cost of petrol and time it takes to drive to JB and steal said disc and driving back home vs cost to steal download off the net and the time it takes to  download ? wow neither are legal. but yeah I guess a valid comparison for those that want to steal regardless.

 

no its the case these days that every one wants everything and just dont want to actually pay for it. want their cake and eat it too basically hehe

 

I do totally agree though we are probably piracy capital of the world, given the denial in access to the media. our releases here are quite lagged at times. but not always the case. look at movie art of flight 3D....is only available to us and uk europe region on blu-ray and am talking years  the us have been denied access. there are quite a few examples these days where movie releases on blu-ray are pretty much concurrent around the world, its very very rare now I might buy a blu-ray off amazon uk or us. and just tend to buy locally these days.

 

tv shows is another where we are lagging in release. but here I just wait, theres a back log of shows I have, two whole series still to watch, so not a biggee I cant watch straight away. tend to wait. others cant and hence steal. though not that it is justified in my eyes. though am sure they do their best to justify to themselves....

 

ps justified is one series have on blu-ray still to watch

[metal beat]

Why don't authorities concentrate on closing down Torrent sites?

[betty boop]

Why don't authorities concentrate on closing down Torrent sites?

http://au.ibtimes.com/articles/292296/20120203/pirate-bay-founders-prison-sentence-redirects-site.htm#.VAEAhEt8Dcs

 

in the us they dont muck around, people will remember megaupload.

 

https://www.tonedeaf.com.au/74466/grandmother-sentenced-for-illegal-downloading.htm

 

uk also sentences eg the grand mother there in scotland.

 

here we are still considering, government is still going after the bigger fish in the people making this possible, they even go after smaller fish where the scale of the crime is such,

 

http://www.smh.com.au/digital-life/digital-life-news/father-and-son-sentenced-after-selling-illegal-foxtel-services-20140506-zr5pt.html

 

good article as of couple of years ago, things might have changed.

http://www.t3.com.au/2012/05/15/downloading-music-illegally-playing-the-piracy-game/

[Mining Man]

--- not directed at anyone in particular ---

 

 

 

If you want something that belongs to someone else, you pay a price agreeable to both parties, you go without or you break the law. It's that simple really.

 

They might go out of business charging too much, or too little. You might be inconvenienced or denied, depending on when and what they choose to make available for purchase.

 

But overcoming the constraints of the above by dishonest means, and justifying it via whatever argument, doesn't charge the heart of the matter. You're a thief.

 

 

This isn't any kind of judgement; we all make our own choices. Just have some balls and admit the consequences of yours.

[Chopsus Maximus]

whilst I agree with your point MM, there has been a culture of "bootlegging" ever since recorded entertainment began ... I am pretty sure everyone on this forum created and owned several "Mix Tapes"? And nowhere has this culture been stronger than in Australia ... If we take your literal interpretation do we simply lock everyone in the country up?

On another literal interpretation of the law ... The offence is for getting caught.

Edited August 30, 2014 by Chopsus Maximus

[betty boop]

No this isn't about making mix tapes, our own copyright laws are fine with making recordings of stuff you own(for your own use). We're talking about illegal downloads here, eg where as an example at cost of $1.80 for internet download, rather than actually buying the content, whether via legal paid download eg $20 from iTunes, or buying the disc eg blu-Ray or cd from the store.

[Mining Man]

... If we take your literal interpretation do we simply lock everyone in the country up?

~

 

My position is more out of frustration with those that pirate obfuscating the point. No one is going to come knocking on your door just because you posted on a forum that you're a pirate. If you're going to do it (and post about it), then at least man up and admit that what you are doing is illegal.

 

I've seen a few of these threads across a few forums, and I'm not going to be one of those people that indulges the posters that appear to be looking for some kind of consensus that validates their choice.

 

I don't give a **** that someone does it. Just stop looking for strength in numbers as some kind of moral leg-up.

Edited August 30, 2014 by Mining Man

[Chopsus Maximus]

No this isn't about making mix tapes, our own copyright laws are fine with making recordings of stuff you own(for your own use). We're talking about illegal downloads here, eg where as an example at cost of $1.80 for internet download, rather than actually buying the content, whether via legal paid download eg $20 from iTunes, or buying the disc eg blu-Ray or cd from the store.

Al, are you saying you never copied a friends album/tape/cd as a kid?

Perhaps I associate with potential criminals, but I am yet to meet one person who can hand on heart say they have never breeched copyright.

On a side note, I was told the other day that it is also a breach of copyright to keep a TV show stored on a PVR after you have watched it and most certainly to archive or share any FTA TV ... If true the LAW should be actively pursuing these people too.

[wolster]

--- not directed at anyone in particular ---

 

 

 

If you want something that belongs to someone else, you pay a price agreeable to both parties, you go without or you break the law. It's that simple really.

 

They might go out of business charging too much, or too little. You might be inconvenienced or denied, depending on when and what they choose to make available for purchase.

 

But overcoming the constraints of the above by dishonest means, and justifying it via whatever argument, doesn't charge the heart of the matter. You're a thief.

 

 

This isn't any kind of judgement; we all make our own choices. Just have some balls and admit the consequences of yours.

 

   

[Chopsus Maximus]

BTW, IIRC legal format shifting in Australia has only been allowed under the law for ten years (?) or so ... Before the revised copyright act even mix tapes of music you owned was breaching copyright at that time, as was transferring it to Tape to listen in the car and I am sure most here have done that also.

Again, I agree with MMs point (and both my BD and Music collections reflect this) but there has been a long held tenant in the development and application of the Law in that it evolves with and reflects the behaviours, values and culture of society ... I'm suggesting that the one of the problems here with the enforcement of these laws is that societies behaviours make it impossible not to criminalise everyone and no politician is going to go down that path and survive.

Nor do I believe it is fair to expect another business to play policeman at their own expense ... Perhaps studious should be paying ISPs a fee for their services if they wish to require them to protect their property .... Just as they would a security guard for tangible property?

[Chopsus Maximus]

My position is more out of frustration with those that pirate obfuscating the point. No one is going to come knocking on your door just because you posted on a forum that you're a pirate. If you're going to do it (and post about it), then at least man up and admit that what you are doing is illegal.

 

I've seen a few of these threads across a few forums, and I'm not going to be one of those people that indulges the posters that appear to be looking for some kind of consensus that validates their choice.

 

I don't give a **** that someone does it. Just stop looking for strength in numbers as some kind of moral leg-up.

OK ... Then there is no discussion here as you won't tolerate any counter opinions.

[Chopsus Maximus]

No this isn't about making mix tapes, our own copyright laws are fine with making recordings of stuff you own(for your own use). We're talking about illegal downloads here, eg where as an example at cost of $1.80 for internet download, rather than actually buying the content, whether via legal paid download eg $20 from iTunes, or buying the disc eg blu-Ray or cd from the store.

Format shifting has only been legal since the 2006 revision of the copyright act - I'm pretty sure everyone on this forum was guilty of making a tape for the car or something similar before that date (let alone "backing up their collection to MP3 or FLAC).

This is a classic example of the law evolving to reflect the attitudes, values, behaviours and culture of society.

As I said before, I support the right of copyright holders to enforce their ownership over their creative works, and my own Music and Movie Collections reflect this, but this enforcement should not be a financial burden on Tax Payers or another's business and if it is it should be paid for by those who require it, Just as all others have to pay to secure their property.

[Guest fordgtlover]

Buy second hand CDs and DVDs. Cheap prices and it's perfectly legal with transfer of licence to the new owner. The best part of buying second hand is that production companies and artists receive royalties from the subsequent purchase ... oh wait... 

 

Talking to the young people, I get the impression that an increasing number are subscribing to music streaming rather than pirating music. This is clearly a step in the right direction. The music and movie industries are relentless in their pursuit of piracy, but are absolutely steadfast in their defence of their outdated distribution models.

 

In my humble opinion the music and movie industries need to find a decent supply model that makes the right thing to do also the easy thing to do. Unfortunately, they expend so much time, money and energy on defending their antiquated and redundant supply model that they are never going to find a solution. This is the problem of 50 year old lawyers running these industries - no understanding of the actual problem to be addressed, and they are only interested in short term profit rather than building a sustainable industry.

 

Copyright law allows for form shifting of content e.g. converting DVD to MP4 for mobile use. However, the asshats in the movie industry have effectively denied us this right by adding copy protection, which is illegal to circumvent. Is it any wonder people think movie executives are the actual rogues in this story. And, let's not even mention the DVD zoning SNAFU.

 

While not a fan of Apple per se, I think models such as iTunes are moving in the right direction. If I could pay $5 to download the latest episode of Game of Throne each week, I would.

 

A few years ago, Jon Dudas, who was was at the time the Under Secretary of Commerce for Intellectual Property and the head of the US Patent and Trademarks Office did a lecture tour talking to law students at a number of US universities. On one particular occasion, about 45 minutes into his lecture, one student raised his hand and said, "You are telling us that downloading content is illegal?". Mr Dudas was a little sheepish in his response, as he had carefully crafted his lecture with this as a very subtle part of the message, but he conceded that this was part of his message. The young student replied, "Oh, we know it's illegal. We just don't care."

 

Herein lies the problem. The music and movie industries have lost the hearts and minds of the younger generation. And, what make it worse is that we read in the popular press about this music star earning millions $$$ or that movie star earning millions $$$. It's pretty easy for young people to be cynical about industry claims that they are losing money. And, yes, we know that it's a very small number of people in these industries making most of the money.

 

A case in point, check this douchebag...

 

 

Personally, I still buy new and used CDs and DVDs as well as trying to see some live music once a week. I try to make a reasonable contribution.

Edited August 30, 2014 by fordgtlover

[LogicprObe]

No this isn't about making mix tapes, our own copyright laws are fine with making recordings of stuff you own(for your own use). We're talking about illegal downloads here, eg where as an example at cost of $1.80 for internet download, rather than actually buying the content, whether via legal paid download eg $20 from iTunes, or buying the disc eg blu-Ray or cd from the store.

 

That did not used to be the case in Australia.

Mix tapes were illegal.

[betty boop]

That did not used to be the case in Australia.

Mix tapes were illegal.

 

check this if unsure

http://www.aria.com.au/pages/faq.htm

 

but lets not go down that rabbit hole, as I mentioend this thread is talkng about illegal down loads  

[peacewise]

A few have mentioned not being able to download movies here in Oz.  Codswallop.

 

I've purchased Game of Thrones Season 4, episodes 8,9,10 for $3.49 Aus on itunes.  Also bought Johhny Depp's new movie Transcendance on iTunes.

 

re physical media - a hard drive or solid state drive is as physical as a dvd or bluray, does one need a piece of paper and a plastic box to appreciate a movie, I think not.