Mains Power Supply

[Jake]

I have heard that a good mains power supply to your system can make a difference. Well, this week the electrician is in our new house running all sorts of cables, new powerpoints etc, and I have asked him to run a new dedicated circuit to the stereo. Currently the room housing the stereo has no PP on the wall behind it at all, and the extrernal power box resides directly behind the wall on the other side, so its an easy installation but one I want to get right.

Is there anything in particular I should be asking for when he runs the cable? Really thick cable? Double thickness?
I think the thickest I can get is 6mm, although no solid core is allowed.

Has anyone done anything similar and have they noticed any gains?

[junkmail]

Hello Jake
for short runs i would use 4mm and for longer runs 6mm

[Tony M]

I have heard that a good mains power supply to your system can make a difference. Well, this week the electrician is in our new house running all sorts of cables, new powerpoints etc, and I have asked him to run a new dedicated circuit to the stereo. Currently the room housing the stereo has no PP on the wall behind it at all, and the extrernal power box resides directly behind the wall on the other side, so its an easy installation but one I want to get right.

Is there anything in particular I should be asking for when he runs the cable? Really thick cable? Double thickness?
I think the thickest I can get is 6mm, although no solid core is allowed.

Has anyone done anything similar and have they noticed any gains?[/b]

I ran a dedicated line from the switchboard to the stereo a couple of years ago. We have a 3-phase power supply (not sure why) and the stereo's on a different phase to things like a/c's dryer oven/hotplates or anything with sudden heavy power demands. I'm too much of an objectivist to take too much notice of my impression that it sounds better. At least, though, there's no possibility of interference from compressors cutting in etc. Anyway, placebo effect or not, I do really think it sounds "cleaner" and that suits me fine :)

In the main, electronic gear has a reasonably modest power requirement. So, I think that the dedicated line is probably more important than super-thick cabling.....but I'm not an electrician.

I'm sure Spearmint would have some very good ideas on this..........

Cheers
Tony

[Spearmint]

Running dedicated circuits is certainly a good idea; however IMO 4mm would be more than enough, if you’re going to drawing massive amounts of current then run multiple circuits, also as Junkmail has pointed out, to reduce voltage drops in long runs then 6mm maybe a requirement.

Having the meterbox on the back of the wall where your HT gear is going to be located is not good practice IMO, but if that’s where it is then it’s going to be a matter of see how it goes. If you are going to get any problems they are likely to be with AC interference induced into your cables, reduced sensitivity on your tuner, and potential noise from the electricity meter, and any ancillary gear time clocks etc (although the equipment used these days is generally quieter than that in days gone by).

Generally though dedicated circuits, even though they are connected to the rest of the house at the switchboard, plus of course the neighbourhood out at the pit, in most cases you’ll experience less localised power induced problems. Also if you have the room in the switchboard have your HT circuit on a separate RCD (safety switch).

[Jake]

Thanks for the thoughts guys.
I was under the impression that I should get thicker cable more from a sound perspective than a problem with drawing large amounts of current. Im going to be getting a 20 amp circuit anyway so there will be plenty of headroom for all the gear.
And the run will be very short, no more than 2m.

In my last house I actually ran a dedicated circuit for the stereo but heard no gains other than a lack of interference from fridges/washing machines etc. But I also didnt request any special thickness of cable.

Good idea about the seperate RCD too Spearmint.

[Keith_W]

Hey Spearmint, what's happened to the Grey Ghost of the Forest?

[Spearmint]

Hey Spearmint, what's happened to the Grey Ghost of the Forest?[/b]

Fixed... :biggrin:

[56oval]

I would look an isolation transformer to get rid of noise through the mains .
Cheers.

[Jake]

I would look an isolation transformer to get rid of noise through the mains .
Cheers.[/b]
Are they expensive?

[56oval]

Depends on brand and function .Mines locally made and cost $990 accouple of years ago rated at 4500VA .
Cheers .

[Jake]

~$1k. Bugger. :( Im already spending enough on wiring the shed etc. To be honest I didnt really notice any noise through the mains already, and thats plugged into the old PP on the wall across the room through an extension lead.
I think I will do without it and see how I go. Thanks for the thought though 56.

I am keen on a surge protector though....when the leccy finally comes back. :rolleyes:

[bronal]

More information, please!

Where does it sit - outside or inside?

What does it look like?



Depends on brand and function .Mines locally made and cost $990 accouple of years ago rated at 4500VA .
Cheers .[/b]

[56oval]

bronal as close as possible to your system
[attachment=3493:diyfi_005.jpg]
Like anything try before you buy if you can .
Cheers.
56 VW is purely for vibration control.

[bronal]

Thanks 56.

Can let me have the details of where you got it from?

Not sure I could get one in Canberra.

If it gets rid of mains noise, then $1 000 isn't too bad a price....

Cheers

Alan

[Jake]

I see there's one on ebay! :biggrin:
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/Gayrad-Saftpak-Safe...VQQcmdZViewItem (http://cgi.ebay.com.au/Gayrad-Saftpak-Safety-Isolation-Transformer-1000-VA_W0QQitemZ180145237418QQihZ008QQcategoryZ71391QQ rdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQcmdZViewItem)

[56oval]

Bronal pm sent .

[junkmail]

bronal as close as possible to your system
[attachment=3493:diyfi_005.jpg]
Like anything try before you buy if you can .
Cheers.
56 VW is purely for vibration control.[/b]


Hello 56oval
i to would like to know where you acan get it from

[56oval]

junkmail , I got the last one in production ,but I'm finding out if BlackArt Automation can make more. The trouble is to be able to get quaulity C-Cores blanks made in Australia .
Cheers.

[Alan Monro]

[quote]
I have heard that a good mains power supply to your system can make a difference. Well, this week the electrician is in our new house running all sorts of cables, new powerpoints etc, and I have asked him to run a new dedicated circuit to the stereo. Currently the room housing the stereo has no PP on the wall behind it at all, and the extrernal power box resides directly behind the wall on the other side, so its an easy installation but one I want to get right.

Is there anything in particular I should be asking for when he runs the cable? Really thick cable? Double thickness?
I think the thickest I can get is 6mm, although no solid core is allowed.

Has anyone done anything similar and have they noticed any gains?

Jake , It does not make any difference having a dedicated power point for home theatr. 6 mil cable is an overkill unless you are running a 4000w amp .If you want to listen to sense ,Have the sparky run 4mm cable from any household point ,That usually works out cheaper, and fit a surge arrestor to protect your gear . No matter what you are told this is the truth . I have designed and built my own HT . Kind regards :biggrin: AlanM .

[Jake]

If you want to listen to sense ,Have the sparky run 4mm cable from any household point ,That usually works out cheaper, and fit a surge arrestor to protect your gear . No matter what you are told this is the truth .[/b]
Tough call there Alan. Everything I have read tells me to run a dedicated line back to the switchboard, which in my case is on the other side of the wall behind the stereo, so its an easy job.

You are probably right about the 4mm being enough, but hey you only live once, so this is what Im going to do:

Im gonna go 6mm, and providing there is space in my switchbox I will run 2 dedicated circuits, one to each of 2 GPOs, both 20 amp. With the actives wired in opposite phase to each other. Interesting article here:
http://stereophile.com/features/991ac/

This may very well be overkill, but then again....noone seems to be able to tell me what is "the best thing" so I will go out on a limb and try it.

A surge arrestor though is a great idea, and will certainly be installed.

[Alan Monro]

[quote]
Tough call there Alan. Everything I have read tells me to run a dedicated line back to the switchboard, which in my case is on the other side of the wall behind the stereo, so its an easy job.

You are probably right about the 4mm being enough, but hey you only live once, so this is what Im going to do:

Im gonna go 6mm, and providing there is space in my switchbox I will run 2 dedicated circuits, one to each of 2 GPOs, both 20 amp. With the actives wired in opposite phase to each other. Interesting article here:
http://stereophile.com/features/991ac/

This may very well be overkill, but then again....noone seems to be able to tell me what is "the best thing" so I will go out on a limb and try it.

A surge arrestor though is a great idea, and will certainly be installed.
[/quote
Jake , you cant run actives wired in opposite phase to each other unless you have 3 phase power connected , and if you did it would be extremely dangerous seeing that if some equipment joined together by cables became faulty you would have 480 volts potential between the two power points AlanM . (technician)

[Jake]

Jake , you cant run actives wired in opposite phase to each other unless you have 3 phase power connected , and if you did it would be extremely dangerous seeing that if some equipment joined together by cables became faulty you would have 480 volts potential between the two power points AlanM . (technician)[/b]
Bugger! That puts an end to that theory then. Thanks for the headsup mate.
So what are Stereophile on about then?

[JA]

This may very well be overkill, but then again....noone seems to be able to tell me what is "the best thing" .........[/b]

Batteries...................................but very difficult for lots of power and you need to be willing to modify or build some custom gear. It's really only an esoteric 2 channel system-high efficiency speaker option I would suggest.

Best
JA

[Alan Monro]

Bugger! That puts an end to that theory then. Thanks for the headsup mate.
So what are Stereophile on about then?[/b]

Jake . I read that article by John Atkinson and found it most uninforming . Alan M .

[Spearmint]

Jake , you cant run actives wired in opposite phase to each other unless you have 3 phase power connected ,

~SNIP~

AlanM . (technician)[/b]

Hmmm still won't happen...each phase is 120deg out not 180deg :wink:

[Jake]

Batteries...................................but very difficult for lots of power and you need to be willing to modify or build some custom gear. It's really only an esoteric 2 channel system-high efficiency speaker option I would suggest.[/b]
Thanks JA. I think you and I can both see this is not going to happen. But its good to know what lies at the top of the pyramid.


Jake . I read that article by John Atkinson and found it most uninforming . Alan M .[/b]
Well, it was lacking test results if thats what you mean. But I have to admit to trusting what those guys have to say, and if they say it made a good improvement then I have no cause to dount them.


Hmmm still won't happen...each phase is 120deg out not 180deg :wink:[/b]
Im definitely out of my comfort zone here. Are you saying that what Stereophile propose is possible Spearmint? Or are you saying that "its still gonna blow your house up".

Did I mention that I drive boats for a living? Any knowledge of electrickery and stuff is self-taught...so please...bear with me.... :rolleyes:

[JA]

This info is include for interest- DONT MESS WITH 240 V MAINS POWER


Best
JA

[56oval]

jake put the seperate curuit in and when you have set every thing up try an isolation tranny if it works you will hear if not take it back.
He's a site to have a read http://www.audio-consulting.ch/ .
JA batteries & solar :cool: .
Cheers.

[JA]

JA batteries & solar :cool: .[/b]

Off the grid baby. :cool:

Hello 56,

Best
JA

[56oval]

[attachment=3497:IMG_2603.jpg]

Batteried powered turn table

[attachment=3496:R_evolut...standWEB.jpg]

Cheers.

[Spearmint]

Jake heed JA’s timely warning, leave the electricity circuits to those that have the appropriate knowledge and training. Always be inquisitive and expand your knowledge in these areas just don’t play with electricity. Remember you cannot see electricity, or smell it, but you can feel it and it can be lethal.

IMO get your dedicated circuits installed and see what happens. It’s no use investing in something you might not need, remember most of these devices are portable and can be easily added later.

[Jake]

Hey blokes, I appreciate the concern...but as stated earlier in the thread an electrician is doing the lot. I DO NOT TOUCH ELECTRICS. And the sparky will only do what is legal no matter what crazy ideas I throw at him. You should have seen his eyes when I said I want a 20amp circuit for the stereo! (although this is ok...) :cool:


Off the grid baby.[/b]
This is my aim eventually. I plan to retire in 5-10 years and wish to go solar ASMAP. I have heard of people selling back to the grid, but I bet they arent actively triamping... :biggrin:

[junkmail]

Jake heed JA’s timely warning, leave the electricity circuits to those that have the appropriate knowledge and training. Always be inquisitive and expand your knowledge in these areas just don’t play with electricity. Remember you cannot see electricity, or smell it, but you can feel it and it can be lethal.

IMO get your dedicated circuits installed and see what happens. It’s no use investing in something you might not need, remember most of these devices are portable and can be easily added later.[/b]

Jake i to support the above please leave all electrical work to those that are qualified to do so
have your dediicated power circuit installed and enjoy
i installed mine about 20 years ago , and only last year put a power filter in the system and also added power cables so dont be in a rush , take your time and the best is to try theses products before you buy
all the the above will make a differance but i find a lot of it depends on your system set up

[junkmail]

junkmail , I got the last one in production ,but I'm finding out if BlackArt Automation can make more. The trouble is to be able to get quaulity C-Cores blanks made in Australia .
Cheers.[/b]
Thank you 56oval
if you can find it would be much appreciated

[fleecy_ears]

I had the sound room wired up with 2 seperate runs of the underground Orange coloured Olex mains cables by a licensed electrician. I think from memory the orange Olex was rated at 40 amps. The dedicated lines are 15 amps and 10 amps respectively and had their own curcuit breakers inside the main switch box.

All termination points for the dedicated lines including the wiring inside the switch box was cleaned with Craig's Pro Gold De-Oxit electrical contact enhancer.

The 10 amp line uses the normal switchless clipsal power points and the 15 amp line using the standard clipsal 15 amp power point (has a larger earth pin). Always go for switchless, as it grips the power cable much better than the standard crappy switched variety. Although having said that the hospital grade American varieties are probably better, but may not be legal.

Yes, the dedicated lines did make a difference by reducing the background noise and somehow sounded more musical. I often plug the gear back into the normal power points and system just looses it.

[Jake]

Fleecy, thanks for that, the switchless PPs sound interesting, although I can always add them later.

If I may quote myself
With the actives wired in opposite phase to each other.[/b] I think this may have been misleading earlier, because as has been pointed out the wiring is single phase. I just meant that the active wire would be run to different sides of the 2 GPOs, as per the Stereophile article. Again, Ihave no understanding of why this should better, if at all, but will try it anyway, providing the sparky is happy to oblige.

[Alan Monro]

Fleecy, thanks for that, the switchless PPs sound interesting, although I can always add them later.

If I may quote myself I think this may have been misleading earlier, because as has been pointed out the wiring is single phase. I just meant that the active wire would be run to different sides of the 2 GPOs, as per the Stereophile article. Again, Ihave no understanding of why this should better, if at all, but will try it anyway, providing the sparky is happy to oblige.[/b]

Jake WARNING WARNING The active and neutral have to run to the came sides of the GPO's BY LAW . IE , 'A' left hand side , 'N' right hand side . Any sparky would not do it any other way so you have no worries . Like i have said before any thing one does to the mains will Never be noticed. AlanM .

[Jake]

Jake WARNING WARNING The active and neutral have to run to the came sides of the GPO's BY LAW . IE , 'A' left hand side , 'N' right hand side . Any sparky would not do it any other way so you have no worries . Like i have said before any thing one does to the mains will Never be noticed. AlanM .[/b]

Thanks again Alan. Why is the law so? What is wrong with running them to different sides if they are on completely independent circuits, and the 1 GPO is the only thing on that circuit?

[Keith_W]

Thanks for your colourful answer AlanM :)

[junkmail]

Thanks again Alan. Why is the law so? What is wrong with running them to different sides if they are on completely independent circuits, and the 1 GPO is the only thing on that circuit?[/b]

Australin wiring standards have been made so that all who use power points can use them safely

so for those thinking of doing the above themselves please note

WARNING

It is illegal for persons other than licensed electrical mechanics, or persons authorised by legislation, to work on fixed wiring of any electrical installation.

[Jake]

Australin wiring standards have been made so that all who use power points can use them safely

so for those thinking of doing the above themselves please note

WARNING

It is illegal for persons other than licensed electrical mechanics, or persons authorised by legislation, to work on fixed wiring of any electrical installation. [/b]

Ah, yeah, thanks for that. :wacko:

[damohpi]

i think the main issue with switching the hot/neutral pins is that some equipment is only fused on the hot side, so for eg, if something shorts and the fuse blows neutral will be shorted, but the equipment will still be live and that's not good... if you can be 100% certain that everything that will be plugged into that point will be double fused than you should be ok, but it's a bad assumption to be making...

[Jake]

i think the main issue with switching the hot/neutral pins is that some equipment is only fused on the hot side, so for eg, if something shorts and the fuse blows neutral will be shorted, but the equipment will still be live and that's not good... if you can be 100% certain that everything that will be plugged into that point will be double fused than you should be ok, but it's a bad assumption to be making...[/b]
Thanks damohphi. Now excuse my ignorance in these matters a little longer, (and Im not trying to be smart - Im just trying to learn) but I thought that with AC being alternating current that it didnt matter which of the 2 pins was wired hot. If the current alternates, then everything must surely need to be double fused? :unsure: (its a moot point anyway as the sparky will only do what he is allowed to do)

I think all posters should understand that I am not asking for absolute assurance from anyone that my proposals are safe, suitable or legal. I have just been asking for guidance for what may be possible, and if it will actually offer any gains.

I appreciate all those who showed concern for my wellbeing, but please, understand that I have under my employ a fully licensed, formally engaged electrician (not even a mate of a mate!), who thinks Im a little eccentric, but who has already told me a few times "Im sorry sir, that is not possible - but this is what I can do".

He is a regular tradie from a reputable local company whom I first found in the yellow pages, and was also directed to when I asked the locals for a good sparky.

For example, I have a shed in this house that I just bought. The shed had an extension lead running to it which powered some GPOs and the lights. This was basically illegal. The sparky is running a new dedicated circuit to the shed for me because the previous installation is not safe. The shed will have its own switchboard, and 20amp circuit for all my power tools.

This sparky WILL NOT be providing me with an unsafe power supply to my stereo.
I WILL NOT be doing the wiring myself.

Again, thanks to all those who (rightly) voiced concern about me messing with electricity.

[Alan Monro]

Thanks again Alan. Why is the law so? What is wrong with running them to different sides if they are on completely independent circuits, and the 1 GPO is the only thing on that circuit?[/b]

Jake , The neutral is tied to earth . Fellow members have said what i would have said , Kind regards :rolleyes: Jake , AlanM .

[Jake]

Well, Im gobsmacked! :ohmy:
Maybe I wanted to hear a difference and Im just imaging it, but I reckon I can now wait a little longer for a Subwoofer.

The sparkys finished the wiring today, the shed, extra power points, light fittings and all that, plus the dedicated line to the stereo.
Although I asked for 6mm he had some 4mm left over from running the catenary out to the shed so used that. The run is 1m from the mains box to the GPO behind the stereo. It goes from a 16amp circuit breaker to a single standard 4 pole GPO. There was no room in the mains box for 2 dedicated circuits once he'd run the pool filter/shed/etc.

I bid the sparky farewell, ran inside and plugged everything back in, and let it warm up for an hour before playing a thing.

Well, I am trying to restrain myself here from all the crap you read in reviews, but some things just have to be said.
(I have included the sources/recording that most highlighted these changes during my quick test this arvo, just out of interest)

Pros:
- Much better bass. When the Eagles' kick drum kicks you can really feel it now. The bass is so much more pronounced and lively. (Eagles - Long Run - Vinyl)
- I already had reasonably good imaging but I reckon I have picked up a bit of depth to it now. Different instruments seem to have their place from front to back now rather than just side to side. (Santana - Marathon - Vinyl)
- The silent bits are silenter. I have read this is can be a result of a new mains power, so maybe Im imagining it? If thats the case, then bring on more placebos! :cool: (All sources, but particularly with vinyl)
- The TT no longer causes a loud pop through the system when I turn it on or off, now there is just a very small audible bump.
- Overall, more dynamics and more engaging!

Cons:
- Everything seems more grainy. There is an edge to the music that wasnt there before. Its possible this may ease off with further use (burn in?), but I can feel already that this may become a bit fatiguing.
- Vocals have picked up some sssibilance. (Chesky - audiophile vocals SACD)
- I will now find it very hard to stop listening!

Now this is what hifi is about. Pure joy! :biggrin:

[junkmail]

Hello Jake
it is good to see you are happy and enjoying the new upgrade to your system (dedicated circuit )

[Jake]

Thanks junkmail. Now I've had some more listening I reckon I can distil the experience down to just 2 words.

Detail and clarity.

[Tony C]

Hi Jake,

Wait till you revisit the system 24 hours after you restored the power. It should continue to improve with improvements in spaciousness and engage you even further.

I have forgotten what Hi Fi sounds like without a dedicated circuit. Been about fifteen years now.
Tony C

[Keith_W]

I have forgotten what Hi Fi sounds like without a dedicated circuit. Been about fifteen years now.[/b]

Yeah, people who have done this swear by it. fatgen was telling me what a difference it made ... certainly something else to consider!

[mondie]

Sounds like its a worthwhile upgrade to make. What actually is a seperate mains line? Is it a dedicated line direct from the switchbox to the power out let with its own RCD and earth stake, or just a seperate line with a common RCD and earth? This might be a good thing to slip in on the new house construction :wink:

[Jake]

Mondie, I dont know much about electrickery, but there was definitely no seperate earth run. I got basically a single circuit with its own breaker. I feel I should know what an RCD is but having a mental blonk (memory loss caused by excessive intake of wine)
I think in my case as well the difference was pronounced due to the very short run of 1m.