The final pre-amp showdown: Supratek Cabernet vs. Bent Audio NOH Passive TVC

[mondie]

As some of you know, l have been the very happy owner of a Supratek Cabernet pre amp now for about 4 months.

Prior to purchasing the Supratek l was close to buying a passive pre amp. Not the traditional stepped resistor type but a transformer based system. The one that seemed to garner the most consistent praise was the Bent Audio NOH. Its made in Canada and in the end l lost my nerve on tking a US$2k chance and went with the Supratek. l am enjoying my Supratek immensley but after it developed an intermittent cut out in the right channel neseciating a return for repair l got to wondering about the NOH. Not much to go wrong there :???:

Bent Audio have recently ceased production of the NOH so l placed a WTB on an owners forum and within days had located a unit for sale in Hong Kong. l have decided to take the plunge and decide for myself once and for all if TVC is for me. My system has way too much gain so is ideally suited.

Expecting the NOH in the next week. Within a month there will either be a mint near new Supratek or Bent NOH looking for a new home :)

BTW the Supratek was only suffering from a loose wire, be interesting to see if thats its downfall!!

Here's a pic of the NOH's innards from the seller.

[56oval]

mondie did you have a look at audio-consultings passive kit or lucas cant at black art audio

[mondie]

Originally posted by 56oval
mondie did you have a look at audio-consultings passive kit or lucas cant at black art audio
No l havent. Are they resistive or transformer based PLC's?

[Critter]

I'm pretty crazy about my Supratek Sauvignon and can't imagine wanting something different......gorgeous sound AND looks.

I'm interested that you say your system has too much gain (Suprateks do, Mick likes high-gains for best dynamics). Does the Cabernet not have gain management? I can adjust mine in several steps on the rear and an extra hi-lo on the top. FYI I use Lo on top and minus 2 steps on rear.

Personally I've never been too fussed on the bass on any passives I've tried.

Will be interested to hear of your observations.

[Fingers]

Can I ask a question please......?

It is about the sort of equipment in this thread.......


I will be taking delivery of some Equinox Perigees shortly.....Rick has told me that my Electrocpmpaniet ECI-1 should drive them no worries, but as i am trying to upgrade to also enable Home Theatre, I was contemplating shifting the ECI-1 to Rear duties, and upgrading my Main amp for the Perigees.

Will a bigger Electrocompaniet make the Perigees sound any better than my 100 watt unit....

or would a valve type set up suit the Perigees.


the Perigees by all accounts are really mid level stuff, so i not wanting to spend huge amounts of dollars on an Amp that is designed for Top Audiophile Speakers......but if an affordable valve style of amp will make them sound better than my current set up, I would be silly not to investigate......!


Fingers.

[56oval]

transformer based

[mondie]

Originally posted by Critter

I'm interested that you say your system has too much gain (Suprateks do, Mick likes high-gains for best dynamics). Does the Cabernet not have gain management? I can adjust mine in several steps on the rear and an extra hi-lo on the top. FYI I use Lo on top and minus 2 steps on rear.

My Cab has a 6 position gain switch on the rear, l have it set to the lowest gain setting and still never get the volume past 9 oclock. Mick from Supratek says that you really only should use the two highest gain settings as anything less starts to squash the dynamics. Who knows what l am missing out on in the lowest setting, if l go anything higher that the 3rd position the sound is distorted badly.

[Critter]

Hmmm, you must have a fair bit of power amp gain and/or very efficient speakers, or a lot of gain at the source.
Checked mine after you posted that and I'm actually on 1 step down on the rear.
I can go to 11-12 o'clock but that's as loud as you could sensibly want.
The dynamics are fabulous.

The Cab is such a beautiful pre-amp in the complete sense of the word that I'd be trying to find a way. Absolutely best of the best imo.
It must have more gain than the Sauvignon.....is there a tube roll that you can try that would reduce the gain?

[mondie]

Critter, not sure about the tube roll question, may ask Mick about that. First it has to at least match the NOH or its out the door. Given that l have huge gain l dont need a pre, its just a matter of whether the NOH can attenuate without squashing the dynamics and robbing my system of life. From many owners reports l have read from people with systems that shade mine thats quite possible.

Should have it by Monday :)

[mondie]

DISCLAIMER; There are many who claim the Supratek Cabernet is up there with the best pre\'s available and that may very well be the case. Passive only works in the right system. You need a high gain source and good impedance matching between source and power amp if you are to have any chance of success. l am sure in 90% or more of listeners systems they would much prefer the Supratek for these reasons. The fact that l am feeding such a high gain signal to my Supratek and needing to use its built in attenuator to lower this signal is far from ideal and no doubt in my system the Supratek is not giving its best. Mick from Supratek recommends having this attenuator at either position 1 or 2 for best performance, l have to have it at 6 (maximum cut) or else my system distorts. That gives you an idea of just how many volts are coming out of my modified AudioNote DAC. The only way to fix this is get a different DAC, not an option as l love the AudioNote and now having experienced the NOH, l doubt l could even get close going that route. The bottom line is, do you research before spending the money to have a go at passive as its not for every system.</span>
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[Fingers]

mondie,

I'm probably the only one out there that is this green, but sorry, I've just got to ask some silly questions.

First one: Gain
I am assuming "gain", is like the level / power that comes out of your source.....can you put some numbers on it....like where do you look on your source's specifications to see this figure?

Second One: Impedance matching

I know where to find impedance on the Speakers, but didn't know it correlated in the source as well......?


How does this impedance matching work........wouldn't the Amp send the same "signal" to the speakers, no matter whjat different inputs differeent impedances were.....?

Any way of simplifying this for us dummies....?





Fingers.

[mondie]

You are correct with gain Fingers. Some amps publish a gain in dB but its not a typical spec with most amps. One hint is the output votage rating of your CD player. Rebook CD is 2v but many players put out much more than that these days.

Impedance matching is a consideration in matching source to pre to power. There are some rules of thumb l cant recall, l dont get too involved in it. l would rather just listen and find what works although some hifi nuts get into a deep techincal analysis of it. Hook it up, see how it sounds. lf you dont like the sound well maybe its a poor impedance match or it could be just not your cuppa tea. Its all about synergy of all components working together and impedance matching is part of that..

[Fingers]

Hey mondie,

how is your digital camera expertise.......

the thumbnail at the beginning of the thread is just a bit tantelising.......want to see more pics please.......!

sorry to all those Supratek owners out there, but the NOH just looks sublime....so simple and all that polished metal...... :grin: :grin:


Fingers.

[mondie]

l'll email you a heap of pics from the guy bought it from Fingers :)

[Fingers]

mondie,

as no more NOH's are being built, John was also suggesting......quote.."Also the Django from diyhifisupply is likely a decent unit and uses virtually the same tx102 transformers"

would you have considered this if you didn't find a 2nd hand one.....?

and when you get on that forum, man, there are like hundreds of different ones out there....bloody confusing.......!



Fingers.

[mondie]

NO, l had my heart set on the Bent just from talking to other owners. The transformers used are made by a UK company but a lot of the design work and refinement made to them has come from John, he knows what he is doing! There will be a new NOH coming out in about 4-5 months, sonically very similar but with some extra features and new packaging. l intend selling mine a buying the new model compete with silver transformers and remote control. That will be the past pre l need for a very long time :)

See here for more reading to make your head swell...........
http://www.audiocircle.com/circles/viewforum.php?f=27

[Fingers]

mondie,

there is no way even a great HT pre-pro can come near the NOH is there.....even the likes of a Halcro SSP80......?

Some NOH's have a HT "through" options, which seems to be the go.....? :-?

4 - 5 months you say....bet thats the longest 4 months in your life.....!...will a Newy be too much dearer than looking for an old NOH 2nd hand unit....?

depending on pricing and time frames, I think I know someone who just might be interested in taking the NOH off your hands..... :grin:


Fingers.

[mondie]

IMO the NOH is THE BEST if it matches to your system. Plenty will poo poo that statement but it is so far ahead of the Supratek which l have read a couple of people dub as being in the top 10 regardless of price. Never heard a system sound as good as mine and l can only put that down to the NOH being the difference.

If you want it when l buy the new version its yours, you will be in awe. The new one will probably be close to US$2k, cheap at 10x the price :)

[mondie]

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[Critter]

There may also be an element of the NOH being what your system needed to really "click".
It is always satisfying when the needed "piece of the puzzle" is found, and systems are like that.....they are systems.

In my system that is what the Supratek did......

[GERADO]

Hi Mondie,

I was wondering how you are going with your new pre amp after your trial with the supratek

Im entertaining the idea of a supratek but not keen on a gamble without an audition.
Im guite unhappy with my system at the moment as it lacks that excitement you seem to have found.

Im considering building the audio note tube pre amp, currently using ARC LS2 with various tubes but just doesnt seem to do it.

I have CEC transport and DAC and this sounds better directly into the Bryston 14b sst power amp.

I would be interested in your opinion


by the way what cabling are you using

[mondie]

Hi Gerado, welcome to our forum.

l love the sound l have now, its been 6 months l guess and l am constantly impressed everytime l listen. In a way l am relieved l took a chane on the Bent, the only way l could hear it was to buy one so it was a leap of faith but after all the reading l had done was confident it could be a significant upgrade.


l owned an AR SP-9 prior to the Supratek and can say the Supratek was a huge step up in performance, l would say the Bent offered at least the same step up again over the Supratek.

Which way to go depends on where you see your system going long term. If your system already sounds better without the LS2 then maybe a Bent along with a high end DAC with a high voltage output could get you on the road to audio nirvana? The $5k or more you would spend on a great pre could be put into a DAC.

l am a firm believer that in my system with the way my components are matched that there is not a pre amp at any price that could better the Bent TVC Passive.

Cheers

[GERADO]

Hi mondie

what other components and speakers are you using.



How long has it taken for you to get to the system you have now. Did you need to make a lot of trial an error changes and auditions?


Have a safe new year